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Old 10-15-2006, 01:54 PM
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going to a hydraulic roller, need opinion's

well it's about time i try some thing differant, so i thought i would stray away from the solid flat tappet cams i usually run & try a hydraulic roller.
i run a 406 sbc with dart pro-1 215cc heads, Victor Jr, holley 750 dp, 10.68 comp, 1.52 roller rockers, big 1 3/4 headers, 3500 stall, 350 turbo, 3.42 gears (was 3.89). i'm running a solid lift lunati 249-259 @.050" with .543-561 lift, on a 106 l/s.

now to the subject matter. i'm thinking a roller cam will not need as much duration as a flat tappet cam. am i correct? the cam i'm thinking of getting is a herbert hydraulic roller 278-286, 242-246 @.050", .567-.585, with a 112 l/s.
to me that sounds like a great torque cam for a 406 chevy. what do you think?
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Old 10-15-2006, 03:25 PM
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I would try to find something with about the same duration @.050 as the cam you had. The only reason that I would get a cam with less duration is if you dont think the 3500 stall was enough. I am building a very similar motor with the comp xr286r (248 254 @.050 .606 .612 lift with 1.6 rockers). I would shoot for something in that range.

Adam
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Old 10-15-2006, 08:58 PM
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As a rule of thumb, when replacing a hydraulic cam with a solid flat tappet cam, you want to increase duration by 10 degrees to achieve a similar performance level. To use this rule in your application, just reverse it. I would recommend a hydraulic roller with around 10 degrees less duration than the solid flat tappet cam. Look for a cam with 235-240 degrees on the intake. Keep lobe separation at 110-112 and the torque it makes will put a smile on your face and rubber on the pavement.

Barry
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Old 10-15-2006, 09:51 PM
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I could be off, but I was under the impression that you were switching cams in order to increase performance. If you are trying to gain driveability, you should run a smaller cam, but that may not match the rest of your parts very well. It is still important to have a matched combination. I would try to pick a cam that matches the powerband of the heads. The 215cc dart heads are recommended for a ~7000 RPM 383-406. Comps 304hr cam(244 244 @.050 .600 .600 lift 110 lsa) cam is recommeded for 3000-6500 RPM, but that is loosely based on a 350, you are probably looking at closer to 2700-6300 on a 406. The closer you can get to the heads and the cam having the greatest efficiency in the same powerband, the better as far as overall performance goes.

Adam
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:43 PM
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firestone you are correct about matching the camshaft, the cylinder heads, intake manifold and other components.
I am going to stand behind my recommendation due to the use of 3.42 gears. If you have ever driven a car that was under geared, you know the less than stellar acceleration that you experience until the cam gets up to it's operating range. I would agree with you completely if the car had a 4.11 gear or lower. It is a complete package that must be created, rear gearing included. I do tend to be a bit conservative on my camshaft selections, but it has worked for me so far.
Why assemble an engine and trans combination that won't come alive until the vehicle hits 60 on the highway?
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Old 10-16-2006, 05:08 PM
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i was really trying not to over cam the engine. thats why i picked a smaller cam. i don't mind a bit changing gears, but i wouldn't go any lower the 4.11's. besides it's a 406. it's going to have bottum end torque. buy going to a bigger cam, it might hook a little better by killing off a little bottum end.

i know nothing about roller cams. that's why i'm here asking you guys.

can i get a hydraulic roller in the 255-260 @.050" range? i wouldn't want to go over .600 lift, or would i? what about the lobe seperation?
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Old 10-16-2006, 06:22 PM
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I think it would help to know more specs on the cams (valve timing events) where one could run it in one of them destop toys.....as well as to what your looking for compared to what you have now
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Old 10-16-2006, 06:51 PM
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HalfOunce, as bad as i hate to say it i have. on the dyno 2000 this was the best cam i could find for torque & horsepower. anything bigger & it started losing torque all accross the board.

on dd 2000 with the herbert cam it topped out at 5500 rpm with 513 horsepower & 528 foot pounds of torque at 4500 rpm. this is with the advertised dart head flow.

with the comp 304 it tops out at 532 at 6500 rpm & 494 foot pounds of torque at 5000 rpm. i don't see how killing torque would make it stronger. it does have a wider powerband though. that alone might be worth something.

Last edited by 406 ss monte; 10-16-2006 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 10-16-2006, 08:55 PM
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That makes sense top fuel. The smaller cam would give better low end performance, which would be nice with the 3.42 gear. I think the 4.11 gears would be a good idea though. I have to agree with the lack of fun in a car that is under geared. I had a car that had a stock 30 year old 307. I had a ~375 hp 350 built, but also had a 2.73 rear end gear. If you floored it it would roll for a little bit and then fry the tires once it got into its power band...not too much fun. I then switched to a 3.90 gear and it would fry the tires at will in first gear. It felt like the 3.90 gear made more of a difference in performance after the motor swap than the initial change of engines.

Adam

Last edited by firestone; 10-16-2006 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:08 PM
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decisions decisions, i can relate there....
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:57 PM
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You can find a roller cam with those specs. You also want to be sure not to run a cam that requires more compression than you have though. The amount of lift that will be beneficial is determined by where your heads flow. If you have a set of heads that continue to increase in flow until .600 lift, then a .600 lift cam would be a good match for the flow of the heads. Below is a flow test done by CHP that will at least give you an idea of the flow pattern for your heads. There are a couple of different cams that I would consider.

XR300R (248 254 @ .050 .562 .580 lift 110 lsa) I would also recommend 1.6 rockers with this cam which would take the lift to ~.592 .610. 3500 stall recommeded, 10:1 compression. I would also run the 4.11 gears

Or

314HR (252 252 @.050 .600 .600 lift 110 lsa) I would recommend 1.5 rockers on the intake and 1.6 rockers on the exhaust of this one. 3500 stall, 10.5:1 compression, 4.11 gears

I would recommend the higher ratio rockers on the exhaust because of the Exhaust to intake flow ratio of your heads from the CHP article. Unless it is 75-80% the extra lift will be beneficial on the exhaust. I think the first one would be better since it is designed to help out on the exhaust flow whereas with the second one you would be kind of creating it on your own with the 1.6 rockers on the exhaust. Another idea which may be the best overall is to call comp up and have them custom grind you a cam. That way you could get their input also. Also, keep in mind that with a hyd roller cam if you rev it over ~6300 RPM, you run the chance of valve float. I just had a motor break a roller lifter after floating the vavles. You can buy rev kits that stop that problem.

Here is a rev kit
http://www.airflowresearch.com/hydra_rev.php

Here are the flow numbers
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...se/index6.html

the higher lobe sepatation angle will help to retain cylinder pressure at lower RPMs. A motor with a lower LSA will perform more efficiently at higher RPMs. With the relatively low RPM range of your motor, I think the higher LSA would be better.

Also I have been trying to mention when I recommend one of these cams to someone with a newer car that comp says they are not legal on pollution controlled cars for what ever reason.

Adam
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Old 10-17-2006, 02:44 AM
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just reading..... You guys are SERIOUS. I Love It.
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Old 10-17-2006, 01:58 PM
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cam dynamics & bullet racing cams are both going to email me & tell me what they think i need.
i have noticed comp cams, crane, bullet, & cam dynamics are all way off with each other on what cam they think should be used. comp usually say the smallest, & bullet & can dynamics usually say the biggest. in the engine i'm running now, comp said to run a lower 240 some thing while cam dynamics & bullet both said to run low to mid 260's. comp said 110 l/s the others said a 104-106 l/s. the same info was given to all three cam companies & all had different opinions. i knew the lunati 249-259 would work great so that's what i went with. i'll let you all know what they come up with this time.

firestone, i do like the xr300, i think it would be a good cam as well. i already have comp cams 1.5 roller steel roller rockers is the only real problem, but i really don't see .040" lift making that much difference. this might be the way i go. plus, i don't see the 406 losing any bottom end torque by running this cam. the solid flat tappet i'm running in my current 406 has a little more duration @.050". so if the xr300 has a more aggressive lobe it should make noticeably more power. the 406 in the ss now with the 3.42 gears will blister the tires all the way into 3rd gear, i'm not worried about not having enough gear. it's a 406. it's going to have bottom end torque. if it were a 327 or 350 i would gear the piss out of it.
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Old 10-17-2006, 05:17 PM
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You are probably right, you would not be gaining that much flow with the 1.6 rockers anyway. I think it should run well. As far as the gears go, if you dont like it, you can always change them in the future.

Adam
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Old 10-18-2006, 09:24 AM
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I have a similiar motor, but 230cc Pro1's, which are probably a bit large, but oh well.
I used the Crane Powermax HR306 306/314, 240,248 @ .050. and it has great low end. My M/T ET street radials can't handle it. Idle sounds great, and is very streetable - once you get it dialed you can cruise along at 2000 RPMs with a manual.
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