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Old 12-04-2011, 11:18 AM
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Going into my 200R4, could use advice...

Hi All,

I've been having a problem with my (JakeShoe built) 200R4, whenever the shifter is in manual low (1st gear), it feels as if it's in two gears at once. It drags the engine down but doesn't completely lock it up. Needless to say, I don't drive using manual low! The fluid is draining as I type this, so it'll be soon.

First to check, the manual shift comb for gear alignment. I did check this when I installed the shifter, so I'm not convinced this is the problem. From what the 'gurus' on Turbobuick.com are saying, there is likely some kind of issue with the 1-2 accumulator that is causing some cross-leak. Not sure what to look for when I get it apart, though...

I have Chris K's 200R4 'bible' and in it he says to completely delete the 1-2 accumulator piston and spring whenever you are over 400HP. I'm around that, and will definitely be over when I get my 416" stroker built next year. If I were to do this, what would the shift(s) be like?

Any other thoughts or wisdom?

Thanks!

Russ

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Old 12-04-2011, 02:01 PM
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That is a problem area for, Pin bore & Piston bore leaks. Sonnax makes dual seal Pinless Pistons for the leak problem.
Hard to say what the Shift will feel like, will depend on Plate Orifice & Servo sizes + TC stall rating. I'd say the light/part throttle 1-2 shift may be a little harsh.
I'd check with Chris, He has changed the 1-2 & 3-4 Accumulator setup in his revised Shift Recal Kit, using springs on both sides of Pistons in some situations. I haven't seen his latest Mods but, have read a few Posts on TB.com where customers were asking ?? about the new Mod. Some of the HiPer Mod Info in His book is now outdated. Wish I had the update Supplement for the Book. You'll probably have to call Him, He doesn't give up much Info on Forums anymore.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:33 PM
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my guess the direct clutches are burnt causing it to bind when the l-r clutches are engaged but really cant tell till its apart id use a heavy spring in the 1-2 a oe grand national spring or ss monte and block of the 4 th gear one in the case it will cushion the 1-2 at light throttle and firm at wot in a high hp unit a hard shift can break things like the band the 4 being block will be firm in od but not hard enought to break any thing
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSedan64
That is a problem area for, Pin bore & Piston bore leaks. Sonnax makes dual seal Pinless Pistons for the leak problem.
Hard to say what the Shift will feel like, will depend on Plate Orifice & Servo sizes + TC stall rating. I'd say the light/part throttle 1-2 shift may be a little harsh.
I'd check with Chris, He has changed the 1-2 & 3-4 Accumulator setup in his revised Shift Recal Kit, using springs on both sides of Pistons in some situations. I haven't seen his latest Mods but, have read a few Posts on TB.com where customers were asking ?? about the new Mod. Some of the HiPer Mod Info in His book is now outdated. Wish I had the update Supplement for the Book. You'll probably have to call Him, He doesn't give up much Info on Forums anymore.
I prolly wouldn't notice too much with my 3600 stall 9.5" converter, it makes the shifts feel pretty much much like a normal passenger car even though it has Chris' full recalibration kit, is dual-fed, and has a billet forward drum. I'll call him after I get the accumulator out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshp83
my guess the direct clutches are burnt causing it to bind when the l-r clutches are engaged but really cant tell till its apart id use a heavy spring in the 1-2 a oe grand national spring or ss monte and block of the 4 th gear one in the case it will cushion the 1-2 at light throttle and firm at wot in a high hp unit a hard shift can break things like the band the 4 being block will be firm in od but not hard enought to break any thing
I sure hope not! This trans (a Monte SS "CQ, BTW) was built by one of the best builders and has less than 200 miles on it. It shifts perfectly normal with the stick in drive, the binding only occurs with the shifter in manual 1st...

Russ
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:11 PM
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Pix!

Hi All,

Got the pan off today, and checked the shift quadrant. It is perfect in every gear except park, where it could stand to go a little further, but it's not causing any problem that I'm aware of. BTW, fluid was clean with very little clutch material.

Also took off the 1-2 accumulator for inspection and found it to be in great shape. No scars and the bore is smooth where the piston rides. Only thing I can see is this is the (very) early style, could that cause a problem with the later spacer plate? And the seal is the square style, I recall reading that the 700R4 guys were using round o-ring style seals... Here are some excerpts from Chris' book:

"Three different 1-2 accumulators have been used over the years by GM on the 2004r transmission. Figure 6D-4 shows the early design housing. Figure 6D-5 shows the second design housing. This housing featured a casting change to work with an updated spacer plate."

"All three are interchangeable. The spacer plate was modified to work with the 2nd and 3rd design housings."


Any further ideas? I'll try and call Chris or Jake tomorrow...

Thanks!

Russ
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:03 PM
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Nobody ? ? ?

I talked to Jake this morning, all he could think of was a cross-leak in the 1-2 accumulator, but that all looks good. His advice was to plug the accumulator port and delete the piston and spring, which I'll do unless others pipe up. It should at least rule that out of the equation...

Hoping for opinions,

Russ
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:26 PM
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That does look like the 1st Design Ac. cover. I'm wondering about Plate compatibility also.
I'd try Jake's suggestion, blocking the 1-2 Ac. That will eliminate it as a crossleak possibility.
I have one, it just has a Ball Bearing drove into the Port.
What does the Ac. Piston to Pin clearance feel like?
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSedan64
That does look like the 1st Design Ac. cover. I'm wondering about Plate compatibility also.
I'd try Jake's suggestion, blocking the 1-2 Ac. That will eliminate it as a crossleak possibility.
I have one, it just has a Ball Bearing drove into the Port.
What does the Ac. Piston to Pin clearance feel like?
I've already got the accumulator housing drilled and tapped for a set screw, just waiting on tomorrow. I didn't have to use air to remove it, a good rap on a wood block got it to the edge where I could pull it out with my fingers...

Thanks!

Russ
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Old 12-10-2011, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S10xGN
I've already got the accumulator housing drilled and tapped for a set screw, just waiting on tomorrow. I didn't have to use air to remove it, a good rap on a wood block got it to the edge where I could pull it out with my fingers...

Thanks!

Russ

Cross leak in the accumulator can be a problem. I am surprised there was never a billet replacement piston offfered with a redesign on the sealing ring. At least I have never seen one
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:07 PM
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Sonnax makes Billet Al. Pinless 1-2/3-4 Acc. Pistons w/Dual seals.
Part Summary >> http://www.sonnax.com/system/announcement/77998-03K.pdf
Instructions >> http://www.sonnax.com/system/instruc...998-03K-IN.pdf
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Old 12-11-2011, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSedan64
Sonnax makes Billet Al. Pinless 1-2/3-4 Acc. Pistons w/Dual seals.
Part Summary >> http://www.sonnax.com/system/announcement/77998-03K.pdf
Instructions >> http://www.sonnax.com/system/instruc...998-03K-IN.pdf

I do not like the pinless design. I was talking about a billet piston that retains the pin. I toss the pinless piston in the trash if I happen upon one in a trans core.

I guess I could mill a pin hole in them
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Old 12-11-2011, 07:40 AM
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Crosley, do the Pinless type cause problems

Todd
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSedan64
Crosley, do the Pinless type cause problems

Todd
it is an opinion thing with me, I have no scientific proof.


I've seen wall scuffing on the pinless. If the spring compresses uneven with mileage on the trans, the pinless piston will turn off center easier. If you use an old spring with the new pinless piston, I would think you start the off center movement earlier.

We have all seen wall scuffing with the pin type piston too. I just think the pin type lasts longer before scuffing starts.

If you take out a used accumilator spring, set on the bench and often the spring leans. The ends are not parallel.
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSedan64
Sonnax makes Billet Al. Pinless 1-2/3-4 Acc. Pistons w/Dual seals.
Part Summary >> http://www.sonnax.com/system/announcement/77998-03K.pdf
Instructions >> http://www.sonnax.com/system/instruc...998-03K-IN.pdf
Interesting quote from that 1st article: "Repeated reciprocation of the accumulator piston causes wear at the piston pin bore interface. After this wear reaches a critical point, fluid loss through the piston pin bore cannot be compensated due to lack of pump volume." I didn't notice any bore slop, but I do have the old 7 vane pump in this tranny...

BTW, did you get my PM from earlier this week?

Russ
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosley
it is an opinion thing with me, I have no scientific proof.


I've seen wall scuffing on the pinless. If the spring compresses uneven with mileage on the trans, the pinless piston will turn off center easier. If you use an old spring with the new pinless piston, I would think you start the off center movement earlier.
We have all seen wall scuffing with the pin type piston too. I just think the pin type lasts longer before scuffing starts.
If you take out a used accumilator spring, set on the bench and often the spring leans. The ends are not parallel.
Makes sense to me, I have noticed most of the old Springs aren't parallel.
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