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GoPro video, Bucket-T chasing down a motorcycle

7K views 48 replies 17 participants last post by  dinger 
#1 ·
Still running my old computer (but not for long) coverted a piece of video to AVI and I'll see here if that worked. Poor computer's CPU was pegged at 100 % for the entire edit process. Have not addressed the slightly sloopy mount, not shimmed yet. Things will get better with the new computer. Any recommendations on a computer? I'm considering a power house "gamer" type computer.

This sequence if it works, is the neighbor kid blowing by me and 3 other cars on his crotch rocket, I had to wait for oncoming traffic to pass and to be able to see about 300' of road. Had to get it from 55 to 110 quick for an upcoming turn. For the hard core gearheads, all that passing was done in 4th gear (1:00 to 1:00) same as doing the pass in top gear of the old Muncie. I pulled 3rd to cut down on the amount of time spent in the opposing lane over the double yellow line, but upshifted to 4th at 3500 rpms. The low rpm torque has made me lazy about pulling gears or running much above 3500. 3500 in 5th is 142.5.

How do you post here to get the video player to show instead of just a link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YlAuK_aJWc
 
#27 ·
66GMC said:
Here is my next PC,
and I'm overdue for an upgrade. I'm presently running a 10 year old P4-2400 with 1GB of ram and 2, 80 gig hard drives.

PC's are DARN cheap these days compared to 20 years ago. Feature-for feature ... they're almost free. You can't even come close after spending several hundred to upgrade various components.

The PC listed above has 6GB of ram (expandable to 16) and has a 1.5 TB hard drive. You'll love having an HDMI port, as well as the built-in card readers.

My 12.1 MP Nikon camera produces some very large "RAW" image files, and movies are much worse for consuming hard-drive space. If the video card isn't fast enough at rendering your movies ... it might be about the only "non-standard" component that you'd need to make this a dream machine, IMHO.
Your link did not take me to your future computer.
 
#28 ·
Buying a computer will always end up costing more than you could build it for, Especially for a name brand box, except Dell, which uses the cheapest parts they can get, then provides a great warranty...

I edit tons of video, convert to and from DVD formats and generally a couple gigs each for files.. I do it all with my 1.8 GHZ AMD Sempron laptop w/ 256 mb of Ram. I don't even have all of the software installed on my Desktop which is an AMD X3 445 Rana core which is 3x 3.1ghz cores, and I have 2gb of Ram. I have a pretty nice video card and it is a mid range gamers rig, altho I should have more Ram.. If I used that computer for the editing, the only thing extra that I would achive is being able to multi task..

That said, I would check out www.Newegg.com for computers. With your expectations and Needs so low, a dual core 1.6 ghz would be all you need. if you went to 2.1-2.5 ghz dual core, then your needs would be more than met.. Just buy somthing upgradable, and if you can get it w/o an OS, I would do so. Then go on Ebay and get an OEM version of win 7 below retail cost. You will get the computer without the bloatware you can't get rid of

This is more computer than you will need for 2-3 years and a great price..
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883103361
 
#29 ·
deckofficer said:
Your link did not take me to your future computer.
The link works just fine on my PC. :confused:

Have a look at this one, too.
Yes it's a "refurb" and no it's not intel, but at $499 and having a quad-core processor ... it's attractive. As I said earlier, a video card upgrade with dedicated ram is a fairly easy upgrade.

PC World has an interesting article as well on the differences between i3, i5, and i7 processors

My son is a graphic designer, as well as a intensive gamer.
As T-Bucket23 said ... he doesn't buy "cheap off-the-shelf" PC's. He does a lot of rendering in Maya ... which is painfully slow on anything but a high-end PC. That process is so intensive that it produces a LOT of heat ... and his PC has cooling fans and heat sinks everywhere. I rib him about having an exremely expensive space heater.

I, myself, tend to buy what I *need*, not what I *want*.
(Translation: Whatever I can get without causing marital dischord):D

Just know that whatever you buy will become obsolete during the trip from the store to your home. I believe that it's one of Murphy's Laws.
 
#30 ·
There is something gratifying about building your own computer. The desk top I'm currently using is reasonably fast tho I don't have enough RAM at 4 GB, do have it on my list. As far as mother boards - I've settled on an ASUS after a couple of early failures of other brands. The AMD processors seem to be a bit cheaper then a comparable Intel, and for my use,possibly even better. Hard drives and CD/DVD drives seem to be commodity items and are cheap. For my main "C" drive, I believe I paid about $50 for a Western Digital (Amazon was cheapest), the other two to make up the ~TB were probably another $50. Add a case with power supply, a GOOD graphics card, an extra fan or two and you will be miles ahead of what is commercially available at that price.

Here is the latest version of "Building the Perfect PC" and what I use for my guide: http://www.amazon.com/Building-Perf...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305120575&sr=1-1 . It's a great guide and actually makes sense :D

Oh yeah - your driving guide - not for me any longer!!

Dave W
 
#31 ·
Thanks for all the tips on getting a new computer that can handle 1080P HD editing. The comment from Ireland's Child got me thinking that I should post the congenial conversation with my neighbor's son, and for what it is worth, he has been very mellow driving his bike on our residential streets since. On your comment "Oh yeah - your driving guide - not for me any longer!!", it isn't for me either, but once in a blue moon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlkl-tygh3Y


Bob
 
#32 ·
deckofficer said:
Thanks for all the tips on getting a new computer that can handle 1080P HD editing. The comment from Ireland's Child got me thinking that I should post the congenial conversation with my neighbor's son, and for what it is worth, he has been very mellow driving his bike on our residential streets since. On your comment "Oh yeah - your driving guide - not for me any longer!!", it isn't for me either, but once in a blue moon.



Bob
I hope you noticed a the any longer and took it for what it's worth. With my past driving habits as well as vehicles, I can never criticize with a straight face an occasional 'outburst of exuberance'. Stupidity though......'nother story :eek:

Dave W
 
#35 ·
deckofficer said:
Chet,

Not too good for reviews. What would you suggest in the $600~800 range?
Keep in mind GoPro says as a minimum 3.2GHz, 4GB RAM, video card with dedicated 1 GB for it.
you wont get a power house PC for 600 bucks. You can get something decent but far from a powerhouse.

Look at it this way, A quality Mother board with cpu and a good fan is gion to cost you 250, a high end video card 150-200. So you are at 4-500 and you still need a case, drives, good power supply etc.
I dont know what you are running now but a mid line Dell with a separate video card, no on the motherboard will probably kick butt on what you have now.
I also like the HP Z400 but they are money.
 
#36 ·
I've done a lot of stupid things in my life but not since I was in my early 20's.....AND I NEVER WAS IRRESPONSIBLE ENOUGH TO DO SOMETHING AS STUPID AS THAT! The real problem here is that you're old enough to know better. I guess some people never grow up enough to realize how many lives they put in jeopardy and how many might be effected if an accident happened.

Personally I hope the cops do hunt you down because you deserve not only a ticket but a couple nights in jail for that stunt. Stupid.... just plain stupid!


Centerline
HotRodsAndHemis.com

"Life is hard..... it's even harder when your stupid." - John Wayne
 
#37 ·
On second thought and after watching all your videos I've come to the conclusion that you really are an idiot. 110 mph on the freeway, 80+ mph on a two lane while passing two cars on a double yellow line. Not very bright for someone who should be old enough not to act like a teenager. A reckless display of manhood once in a while maybe excusable or even understandable, but you seem to make a dangerous habit of it. Most of us have grown up enough that just knowing what our vehicles can do is enough and we don't have to "prove" things to other people, yet alone record our moments of sheer stupidity. I could give a crap about you but from what I've seen you need to grow up a little before you kill some innocent bystander in one of your escapades. Take it to the track.... reckless speed on the streets is idiotic.

Centerline
Hotrodsandhemis.com
"Stupid is as stupid does." - Forest Gump
 
#39 ·
65GTO455 said:
Hey Centerline...

Whats going on? Are you alright? If you ever need to talk, were here for you man. :( As much as we can be.
Sorry but the place for that kind of driving is on the track not on public highways where innocent people may become this guy's victims. Besides only an egomaniac would post 6 videos on youtube featuring his speedometer. This guy is 58 going on 16.

Centerline
Hotrodsandhemis.com
"You want to see my license officer? Sure, would you hold my beer while it get it for you?" - Anonymous
 
#40 ·
I guess I need to share my response to some PMs. I didn't post again on this thread not because someone was raking me over the coals, rather there was no questions to respond to. If I got upset eveytime someone got on my case here on the automotive forums, I wouldn't be a happy camper. I'll just have the common sense to only post my "putzing" videos, and leave the "spirited" videos on my forum....

http://tbuckets.lefora.com/

and the Cobra forums. They know me there and don't seem to take issue with my driving on the street or track (accident free on both, 2 million miles). If your willing to accept a ticket, the double yellow lines is a general recommendation in Canada, but law here. There are times on the dashed white line, that if driving a Yugo, wouldn't be safe to pass but legal. If your only looking at the video, you may not see what I saw, which was plenty of room (in distance) to complete a safe pass, shy of kicking in the secondaries.

Enough said, I hope.
 
#41 ·
Chet,

BTW, I pulled the trigger on a new computer purchase. Tell me if I did good, as you seem to know about them. I had to spec it because I couldn't find what I wanted in a finished unit. Remember this is for video editing, I'm not a gamer and never will be.

Intel i5-2500K 3.30 GHz 6M liquid cooling
8GB DDR3 1333 MHz dual channel memory
700 watt PS
Nvidia GeForce GT 520 w/ 1GB
Biostar H61MH Intel HDMI Motherboard
HDD 1TB SATA II 3.0Gb/second
Wireless IEEE 802
12 in 1 flash media reader/writer
24X double layer dual format DVD R/RW

Bob
 
#43 ·
deckofficer said:
I guess I need to share my response to some PMs. I didn't post again on this thread not because someone was raking me over the coals, rather there was no questions to respond to. If I got upset eveytime someone got on my case here on the automotive forums, I wouldn't be a happy camper. I'll just have the common sense to only post my "putzing" videos, and leave the "spirited" videos on my forum....

http://tbuckets.lefora.com/

and the Cobra forums. They know me there and don't seem to take issue with my driving on the street or track (accident free on both, 2 million miles). If your willing to accept a ticket, the double yellow lines is a general recommendation in Canada, but law here. There are t imes on the dashed white line, that if driving a Yugo, wouldn't be safe to pass but legal. If your only looking at the video, you may not see what I saw, which was plenty of room (in distance) to complete a safe pass, shy of kicking in the secondaries.

Enough said, I hope.
The Cobra forums probably don't care if you break the law and brag about it. However, here at Hotrodders Jon has a policy of not only frowning on, but also not allowing discussions about street racing. What your video showed was street racing plain and simple. There is no other explanation for it. And your escapade on the interstate at 110 mph (another youtube video) was just plain reckless.

Like I said before, anyone can occasionally have a laps of judgement or feel the need to release a little extra testosterone once in a while, but doing it on purpose with video documentation is just dumb and it speaks volumes about your maturity. I'm sure you don't agree, but when you post stuff like that on the internet you'll have to expect that people who are mature enough to realize your actions are reckless, will point that out to you.... not that it will do any good. I'm afraid the only way you'll really learn this lesson is when you kill yourself or someone else. Unfortunately, by then it will be too late.

Centerline
Hotrodsandhemis.com
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
 
#44 ·
deckofficer said:
Chet,

BTW, I pulled the trigger on a new computer purchase. Tell me if I did good, as you seem to know about them. I had to spec it because I couldn't find what I wanted in a finished unit. Remember this is for video editing, I'm not a gamer and never will be.

Intel i5-2500K 3.30 GHz 6M liquid cooling
8GB DDR3 1333 MHz dual channel memory
700 watt PS
Nvidia GeForce GT 520 w/ 1GB
Biostar H61MH Intel HDMI Motherboard
HDD 1TB SATA II 3.0Gb/second
Wireless IEEE 802
12 in 1 flash media reader/writer
24X double layer dual format DVD R/RW

Bob
Looks like it will do the trick. I am not big on liquid cooling, It is more of a gimick in my opinion. Biostar is not my favorite brand of MB but they do sell a lot of them so they must be ok. The key to video stuff is a good video card and a lot of ram. You should be good there.
 
#45 ·
Centerline,


You didn't respond here four times because you wanted to let deckofficer know that he was in violation of any forum rules.




If you read the entire thread before posting your first reply, then I am sure you noticed that:


1. deckofficer made it clear in his first post that he linked the video here to see if could be embedded on the forum. The title of the thread suggests the content of the video linked. Nowhere does he brag or glorify street racing and dangerous driving.


2. Several forum members called him out on his mistake (no one does it more than once), and managed to stay on the topics of this thread: video and the appropriate technology required for video editing.


3. deckofficer, although not obligated to in any way, admits to his mistake and goes a step further and shows that two people learned their lesson that day.
deckofficer said:
I won't mention where this was, just know that I know how dumb it was and for 99.99% of the time just putz around, short-shifting (1000~1600rpms). The kid on the bike is my neighbor and he drives way too fast on our rural, residential streets. We have always been on good terms, and since I caught him on the GoPro (it was my 1st drive with it), he now drives 20 mph on our street just like me. He doesn't want his Dad to see the video, so we got a deal

4. deckofficer, after admitting "how dumb it was", then goes to on say that he got heat from other forum's members as well.
deckofficer said:
Yea Cole,

Can't be a corpse with tangled hair. Sure taking the heat for the same post on the HAMB. My forum and a Cobra forum are the only two that reserved judgement on my mental state.



You didn't respond here four times because you wanted to let deckofficer know that he was in violation of any forum rules. You did it because you like to take it out on people online when you can find the slightest fault with what they may do or say. Had you actually called out deckofficer in the interest of following forum rules and encouraging safe driving, you would have said the portion quoted below portion in your first response.
Centerline said:
The Cobra forums probably don't care if you break the law and brag about it. However, here at Hotrodders Jon has a policy of not only frowning on, but also not allowing discussions about street racing. What your video showed was street racing plain and simple. There is no other explanation for it. And your escapade on the interstate at 110 mph (another youtube video) was just plain reckless.

And in your first response, you could have simply left the matter alone after saying what you did in your response quoted below.
Centerline said:
I've done a lot of stupid things in my life but not since I was in my early 20's.....AND I NEVER WAS IRRESPONSIBLE ENOUGH TO DO SOMETHING AS STUPID AS THAT! The real problem here is that you're old enough to know better. I guess some people never grow up enough to realize how many lives they put in jeopardy and how many might be effected if an accident happened.
But, you didn't stop there. You continued with:
Centerline said:
Personally I hope the cops do hunt you down because you deserve not only a ticket but a couple nights in jail for that stunt. Stupid.... just plain stupid!
And you still could've just left it alone there. But you didn't. You continued with:
Centerline said:
"Life is hard..... it's even harder when your stupid." - John Wayne
For the record, you made no mention of any violation of forum rules in your first response.




Then, almost 12 hours pass. Almost... (just short of 6 minutes)




You began again, the following morning:
Centerline said:
On second thought and after watching all your videos I've come to the conclusion that you really are an idiot. 110 mph on the freeway, 80+ mph on a two lane while passing two cars on a double yellow line. Not very bright for someone who should be old enough not to act like a teenager. A reckless display of manhood once in a while maybe excusable or even understandable, but you seem to make a dangerous habit of it. Most of us have grown up enough that just knowing what our vehicles can do is enough and we don't have to "prove" things to other people, yet alone record our moments of sheer stupidity. I could give a crap about you but from what I've seen you need to grow up a little before you kill some innocent bystander in one of your escapades. Take it to the track.... reckless speed on the streets is idiotic.
... and you ended with:
Centerline said:
"Stupid is as stupid does." - Forest Gump
Again, for the record, you made no mention of any violation of forum rules in your second response.




Other forum members, including myself, saw and read all this after you posted for the second time - within a 12 hour period - and fellow member 65GTO455 can't help but ask:
65GTO455 said:
Hey Centerline...

Whats going on? Are you alright? If you ever need to talk, were here for you man. :( As much as we can be.
You responded to 65GTO455 with:
Centerline said:
Sorry but the place for that kind of driving is on the track not on public highways where innocent people may become this guy's victims. Besides only an egomaniac would post 6 videos on youtube featuring his speedometer. This guy is 58 going on 16.
... and you ended with:
Centerline said:
"You want to see my license officer? Sure, would you hold my beer while it get it for you?" - Anonymous
Once again, for the record, you made no mention of any violation of forum rules in your third response.




deckofficer responded and clarified that, as the driver, he was engaged in what he would call "spirited" driving and made his pass - against the law - with enough distance to do so. Again, this was after he had already admitted in an earlier post how "how dumb it was and for 99.99% of the time just putz around, short-shifting (1000~1600rpms)." he doesn't attack or go off on any forum member for calling him out. But even his response shows that he knows he is being picked on now. But he tried to dissipate the whole thing by ending with, "enough said, I hope," and went back to the topic - by starting a new post - that everyone has been addressing the entire time: what computer is good enough to handle his video editing needs.




Again, peace could've made here and the conversation on the computer could have continued...


But you couldn't let it go. Why? Because your need to have the last word. And considering the fact that I have lurked on this forum long enough to have read several of your posts and threads, and have lots of experience going toe-to-toe with people who live for the last word, I would know.




You responded for the fourth time, finally referencing forum violation:
Centerline said:
The Cobra forums probably don't care if you break the law and brag about it. However, here at Hotrodders Jon has a policy of not only frowning on, but also not allowing discussions about street racing. What your video showed was street racing plain and simple. There is no other explanation for it. And your escapade on the interstate at 110 mph (another youtube video) was just plain reckless.
Nowhere did deckofficer brag about breaking the law. I've read all the posts. Thoroughly. Several times.

You continued with:
Centerline said:
Like I said before, anyone can occasionally have a laps of judgement or feel the need to release a little extra testosterone once in a while, but doing it on purpose with video documentation is just dumb and it speaks volumes about your maturity. I'm sure you don't agree, but when you post stuff like that on the internet you'll have to expect that people who are mature enough to realize your actions are reckless, will point that out to you.... not that it will do any good. I'm afraid the only way you'll really learn this lesson is when you kill yourself or someone else. Unfortunately, by then it will be too late.
... and ended (for now) with:
Centerline said:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein




You didn't respond here four times because you wanted to let deckofficer know that he was in violation of any forum rules.

deckofficer admitted his stupidity. He admitted that he had been called for his stupidity several times on other forums as well. ever did he brag or defend what he did. No forum member here, aside from you, brought up what he did more than once. You called him an idiot several times. You posted quotes at the end of each response that talk about stupidity. He tried to move on by changing the subject. You brought the thread right back to it. You couldn't let it go.

Why?

Because your need to have the last word. And considering the fact that I have lurked on this forum long enough to have read several of your posts and threads, and have lots of experience going toe-to-toe with people who live for the last word, I would know.




P.S. Oh, and when you decide to respon, please do let us know if Jon also frowns upon and has a rule against bullying, harassing and spending an unnecessary amount of time calling people out while not letting the subject change...




"I'm sure you don't agree, but when you post stuff like that on the internet you'll have to expect that people who are mature enough ... will point that out to you.... not that it will do any good." - Centerline
 
#46 ·
T-bucket23 said:
Looks like it will do the trick. I am not big on liquid cooling, It is more of a gimick in my opinion. Biostar is not my favorite brand of MB but they do sell a lot of them so they must be ok. The key to video stuff is a good video card and a lot of ram. You should be good there.
Biostar is decent mid range. My board in my computer is a Biostar. I would agree on the liquid cooling. It looks cool, but fan cooling does the trick just the same with good airflow thru the case. Usually 2 80mm in the front and 1 or 2 in the back, or single 120mm in the front and single 120mm in the back is enough, whichever the case is set up for
 
#47 ·
I don't intend to over clock, that is where liquid cooling is a must. The other benefit is quieter operation on computers that would get hot and need high speed from the fans. This unit has a digital readout of CPU, video card and PS's temperature and the fans are variable speed to meet cooling needs. You can override when adding a voice over, where you want a quiet environment or speed it up if you know future demands will be high. Kinda cool, no pun intended.
 
#48 ·
lt1silverhawk said:
Centerline,

You didn't respond here four times because you wanted to let deckofficer know that he was in violation of any forum rules.

If you read the entire thread before posting your first reply, then I am sure you noticed that:

1. deckofficer made it clear in his first post that he linked the video here to see if could be embedded on the forum. The title of the thread suggests the content of the video linked. Nowhere does he brag or glorify street racing and dangerous driving.

2. Several forum members called him out on his mistake (no one does it more than once), and managed to stay on the topics of this thread: video and the appropriate technology required for video editing.

3. deckofficer, although not obligated to in any way, admits to his mistake and goes a step further and shows that two people learned their lesson that day.

4. deckofficer, after admitting "how dumb it was", then goes to on say that he got heat from other forum's members as well.

You didn't respond here four times because you wanted to let deckofficer know that he was in violation of any forum rules. You did it because you like to take it out on people online when you can find the slightest fault with what they may do or say. Had you actually called out deckofficer in the interest of following forum rules and encouraging safe driving, you would have said the portion quoted below portion in your first response.

And in your first response, you could have simply left the matter alone after saying what you did in your response quoted below.

But, you didn't stop there. You continued with:

And you still could've just left it alone there. But you didn't. You continued with:

For the record, you made no mention of any violation of forum rules in your first response.

Then, almost 12 hours pass. Almost... (just short of 6 minutes)

You began again, the following morning:
... and you ended with:

Again, for the record, you made no mention of any violation of forum rules in your second response.

Other forum members, including myself, saw and read all this after you posted for the second time - within a 12 hour period - and fellow member 65GTO455 can't help but ask:

You responded to 65GTO455 with:

... and you ended with:

Once again, for the record, you made no mention of any violation of forum rules in your third response.

deckofficer responded and clarified that, as the driver, he was engaged in what he would call "spirited" driving and made his pass - against the law - with enough distance to do so. Again, this was after he had already admitted in an earlier post how "how dumb it was and for 99.99% of the time just putz around, short-shifting (1000~1600rpms)." he doesn't attack or go off on any forum member for calling him out. But even his response shows that he knows he is being picked on now. But he tried to dissipate the whole thing by ending with, "enough said, I hope," and went back to the topic - by starting a new post - that everyone has been addressing the entire time: what computer is good enough to handle his video editing needs.

Again, peace could've made here and the conversation on the computer could have continued...

But you couldn't let it go. Why? Because your need to have the last word. And considering the fact that I have lurked on this forum long enough to have read several of your posts and threads, and have lots of experience going toe-to-toe with people who live for the last word, I would know.

You responded for the fourth time, finally referencing forum violation:

Nowhere did deckofficer brag about breaking the law. I've read all the posts. Thoroughly. Several times.

You continued with:

... and ended (for now) with:

You didn't respond here four times because you wanted to let deckofficer know that he was in violation of any forum rules.

deckofficer admitted his stupidity. He admitted that he had been called for his stupidity several times on other forums as well. ever did he brag or defend what he did. No forum member here, aside from you, brought up what he did more than once. You called him an idiot several times. You posted quotes at the end of each response that talk about stupidity. He tried to move on by changing the subject. You brought the thread right back to it. You couldn't let it go.

Why?

Because your need to have the last word. And considering the fact that I have lurked on this forum long enough to have read several of your posts and threads, and have lots of experience going toe-to-toe with people who live for the last word, I would know.

P.S. Oh, and when you decide to respon, please do let us know if Jon also frowns upon and has a rule against bullying, harassing and spending an unnecessary amount of time calling people out while not letting the subject change...

"I'm sure you don't agree, but when you post stuff like that on the internet you'll have to expect that people who are mature enough[ ... will point that out to you.... not that it will do any good." - Centerline
Actually I would like to respond to this.... but quite frankly your rambling is not only difficult to understand but lacks organization and makes very little sense. Of course that's just my opinion.

Centerline
Hotrodsandhemis.com
"It’s easy to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it." - Anonymous
 
#49 ·
Centerline said:
Actually I would like to respond to this.... but quite frankly your rambling is not only difficult to understand but lacks organization and makes very little sense. Of course that's just my opinion.

Centerline
Hotrodsandhemis.com
"It’s easy to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it." - Anonymous
I understood every word. And I agree with every word Lt1 has said. It began with the name calling,
On second thought and after watching all your videos I've come to the conclusion that you really are an idiot.
which is still against the rules in our guidelines. You're beating a dead mule to get the last word in, give it up, it looks foolish. This thread needs to be split and the crap sent to the dump. Dan
 
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