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Old 02-09-2013, 08:18 AM
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got a pounding HEAD ache!!!

ok, first, i'll take the butt kicking and hand slaps. i'm going to ask something that i'm sure has been covered, but after days of searching multiple forums, i haven't found an answer.

first. the setup.

350 .030 over, near zero deck (I measured .006")
flat top speed pros with 4 valve reliefs.
fel pro head gaskets 4.060" bore .039" compressed
comp cams xe262h 218/224 @ .050 .469"/.477" 110 lsa
700r4 trans stock converter
2.73 rear (3.23 in future)
goin in 90 camaro

now, unlike most, i am not building for the most power. i'm not trying to hit 500hp, 10 sec, or anything close. actually, if i hit 325hp i'd be happy! what i am going for is more of a daily driver/highway cruiser with just a little attitude. not interested in turning high rpm's. i'm not goin to cage the car or use subframe connectors. it's a ttop car. being built as a backyard show car. something that looks nice, drives great, yet has just enough to be fun at the track once in awhile.

so...heads. not interested in the vortecs. yes they are great heads. but where i live they are non existent. no shops here want to touch them. and i can't stand the centerbolt VC's. with the cam i have i would need to work the guides for clearance, bigger springs etc etc. really don't want to put that kind of money into heads. i'm also hesistant about the 64cc. i am not going for high CR. my goal is 9.5:1 or so. i've punched the numbers into a hundred CR calculators with a hundred results from 8.9:1 up to 11.21:1

most everything i've read is about building the highest power. not the direction i want to go. so what seems to be a good head? i really don't care about the chamber size. it could be 76cc just as long as it works great. i have a line on a set of early 416's with 1.94 valves cut in, and 64cc. or should i find a set of 76cc with 1.94's?

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Old 02-09-2013, 08:43 AM
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With XE262H, Vortec heads might not be a bad idea. Stock springs work fine with that cam as long as you stick with the 1.5:1 rocker ratio. I like to see the rotators removed and new springs installed, to get the most out of the new cam.

Dart Iron Eagles are excellent performers, but may be a bit large. If you can find some World "SR Torquers", they're what you want for the torque. If you want to stay with Chevy castings and steer away from the Vortecs, the 441 (last three digits), 993, 997, 487 are all good castings to work with. They have 76 CC chambers (nominal) making them ideal for pump gas.

FWIW

Jim
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Old 02-09-2013, 09:00 AM
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i'm not totally dead set against the vortecs. but where i live no shop wants to touch them. they are voodoo around here. i'm not a fan of centerbolt vc but it does seem like they are good. i just can't see spending $600+ for a set of stock vortecs plus shipping. did find couple shops that'll rework them but they think highly of their work. $250 for full clean/mag/3 angle. which puts me right back to $600+ after i find a junkyard set.

unless someone knows of a KILLER deal online...
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:27 AM
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Nobody in the CA Bay area or San Jose will touch Vortecs? Do they say why? I haven't had head work done for ages, but $250 doesn't sound over the top for a reputable shop.
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:31 AM
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not living in CA or San Jose. not sure where that came from. live in south central kentucky. there are couple shops that will touch heads but $250 for non 3 angle, basic rebuild is more than i have ever paid. people around here do not use vortecs. even the roundy round guys don't like them. it's really odd, i agree.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxxman04 View Post
ok, first, i'll take the butt kicking and hand slaps. i'm going to ask something that i'm sure has been covered, but after days of searching multiple forums, i haven't found an answer.

first. the setup.

350 .030 over, near zero deck (I measured .006")
flat top speed pros with 4 valve reliefs.
fel pro head gaskets 4.060" bore .039" compressed
comp cams xe262h 218/224 @ .050 .469"/.477" 110 lsa
700r4 trans stock converter
2.73 rear (3.23 in future)
goin in 90 camaro

now, unlike most, i am not building for the most power. i'm not trying to hit 500hp, 10 sec, or anything close. actually, if i hit 325hp i'd be happy! what i am going for is more of a daily driver/highway cruiser with just a little attitude. not interested in turning high rpm's. i'm not goin to cage the car or use subframe connectors. it's a ttop car. being built as a backyard show car. something that looks nice, drives great, yet has just enough to be fun at the track once in awhile.

so...heads. not interested in the vortecs. yes they are great heads. but where i live they are non existent. no shops here want to touch them. and i can't stand the centerbolt VC's. with the cam i have i would need to work the guides for clearance, bigger springs etc etc. really don't want to put that kind of money into heads. i'm also hesistant about the 64cc. i am not going for high CR. my goal is 9.5:1 or so. i've punched the numbers into a hundred CR calculators with a hundred results from 8.9:1 up to 11.21:1

most everything i've read is about building the highest power. not the direction i want to go. so what seems to be a good head? i really don't care about the chamber size. it could be 76cc just as long as it works great. i have a line on a set of early 416's with 1.94 valves cut in, and 64cc. or should i find a set of 76cc with 1.94's?
So unless those 416 heads have some heavy deshrouding they are in or around 58cc's, not what your looking for. If your not shooting for big HP, check out Skip Whites pro comp stuff, I would go with 64cc's and a. 041 head gasket, gives you about 9.8 or less comp. The price is under 6bills and they seem to work decent. The problem there is that power is addictive....it won't take long before a couple late night romps, or trips to the track and 325hp will get mundane. Everyone says "nah it won't happen to me" but reality is it usually does, so it's nice to have a head you can grow into. For right around a grand you can do the summit house brand heads, which are brodix, and have room to make far more power then your required 325. Or pro-filers, if you ever want to get real serious they can be opened up a ton. There's lots of choices, but if your serious about budget, and "only" 325hp then the pro comps may be the way to go. He uses his own hardware, and checks his stuff, and warranties if required.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:21 AM
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oh, i know all about "the bug". lol. but, this is seriously just a MILD build. the need for speed fix is another project of mine. THAT one will get spared no expense. but for the current build, i'm gonna take it easy. as it turns out, i just made a call, and may have found a deal. going to go check it out. $300 for fresh rebuilt 906's with .525 springs and an rpm intake. still not fully sold on 64cc but i can't be the only one who has used them. and still not a fan of the centerbolt, but maybe it'll grow on me. worst case, i don't like and sell.

i will however keep taking input, just in case this deal is a no go
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:45 AM
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A 64cc head is just right for a 350 with a flat top piston.


A 4416 head that has had a larger 1.94" valve installed will usually check at 62cc, unless it was then shaved.
The only way to know is to CC the chamber.
Even a OEM stock 4416 head is rarely exactly 58cc. This is a nominal spec.

906 vortecs great choice..

a 4416 with larger 1.94 valve and full generous home porting, will work very very well too. They make suprising power when done right.
It is not cost effective to pay someone to port stock heads. DIY.

When you change the gears. Change to 4.10's. Thats what over drive is for. and then it will actually be usefull.
high perf engines need rpm.

4.10 is 2.87:1 in Overdrive.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 02-09-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:58 AM
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yea, my past experience with 64cc has been good, but i've used 272 or bigger cams. and having done CR calculators that spit out 11:1 or high 10:1 CR has put me on edge a little. greatly, greatly appreciate all the friendly advice!!!!
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:08 PM
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yea, my past experience with 64cc has been good, but i've used 272 or bigger cams. and having done CR calculators that spit out 11:1 or high 10:1 CR has put me on edge a little. greatly, greatly appreciate all the friendly advice!!!!
I get 10.29:1 on that engine with a felpro 4.166" X .041" head gasket and 64cc head..

you only need one good cr calc and the right inputs to get a good cr answer.

Google search Maverick and compression calc and download and use this free
and easy engine cr calc.

Not that hard You are wasting your time and causing your self needless stress with all this DCR BS.
Its real simple keep the cr under 10.5:1 and put good gas in the tank and it will run fine on any typical cam.
It is just that simple.

add 4.10's and a 245MM/9"-- 10" 3000 stall and some sticky tires (all of which you can do in the future as money allows) and you will have a fun camaro that goes like hell. 3.23 is a waste of time and money.
when you get around to buying a high stall do not waste your time or money on a 12" torque converter.
its is just a cheaply modified stock GM converter.
Buy a 245MM or a 10" diameter lock up style high stall converter. 3000-3200 is just right.
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:22 PM
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thanks for the link!!! ok, so slightly confused. my understanding is the valve reliefs are entered as a positive number, not negative. am i wrong? also, how streetable or lower rpm friendly is 10:1 going to be? with 700r4 and 2.73 i'm afraid it'll be a pinging slug. like i said tho, not looking to build a monster out of this car. already have another one for that. just something with a little kick to it. actually, i guess i could just use a good octane booster every other tank or so to help.
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:28 PM
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Another head you can look for are the OEM stock camaro TPI heads.
Casting number ends in "083" Stock on 87 to 90ish TPI camaro engines.

1.94x 1.50 valves 64cc chambers good head when fully home ported too.
centerbolt covers, normal intake manifold. Do not confuse with a swirl port head.
Modest flow in stock form but good when generously ported. 2.02 x 1.60 good too with porting.
Again DIY porting.
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:29 PM
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You will need 92 octane. Forget the voodoo octane booster.
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:37 PM
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any reason not to use edelbrock E-tecs?
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Old 02-09-2013, 02:31 PM
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Keep the ports and valves relatively small to make that cam "work" properly. It's not a high rev cam. In a 355, it's all done by about 5,600. Nice low-end and mid-range, though. I wouldn't go any larger than 2.02, and probably "like" 1.94s better. For iron, keep the static ratio in the 9.2-9.5:1 range. For aluminum, 10.2 or so. Some of our happiest small block customers have Edelbrock Performer, an AED 650HO or a nice Q-Jet, that cam, small headers and good ignition. Very torquey, nice rumble to the idle, stock converter, snappy performance "at speed", strong vacuum and reasonable gas mileage.

Yes, valve reliefs are a "negative" as they add to the overall volume. Same as a "dish" or "reverse dome". Deck clearance is also a negative.

FWIW

Jim
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