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Old 10-24-2004, 08:00 PM
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grand am JUNKER wont start!!

this totally blows two! aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrre!! FFFFFkkkkk!!!!!

MY grand am, which, by the way, is the world's worst engineered car, a YUGO is better by FAR! died downtown last week for no reason.
i have a friend who works at chevy. yes, he is a wrech, not a salesman, thank you, he said it's either the crank sensor or the fuel pump. so i check for spark on #3 and #4 (different coil paks) and i have spark, so i cant hear the fuel pump because i didnt know what to listen for at the time so i find out it's in the gas tank. so i take the gas tank out. what a p.i.t.A.! siamesed double fuel and vent lines???? what are you on F'ing CRACK????? what STUPID MUTHA FKA! designed THIS PIECE OF FING DOG CRAP STUPID FING DESIGN????? you can't barely get ONE off let alone both of them at the same time!!!!??? I got my razor out and cut them in half and it still took all my might to get them off the tank!!! SHHHHHHEITE (MOSLEMS). drop the STINKIN tank, and finally wiggle it out out the pass. side and pull out the stupid pump. a friend gives me two. i hook all three of them up and they all work the same!!! so i put in one of his, change the sock (panty liner... $8!!!! for this??? i could buy one worn by Brittany Spears on E-Bay for less than $8!) and change the fuel filter as well. IT STILL DONT START! so my bud Mr. Goodwrench brings his code reader over and we plug it in. NO CODES. so he says it must be the stupid PCM: program control module. well, i saved $90 by using a used pump but now i have to BEND OVER and pay $90 for this engine control module, known as the computer. btw, as an electrical part THERE IS NO F'ING RETURNS! which i thought you might like to know, as if you DIDN'T- that it WASN'T THE PROBLEM EITHER!!! it STILL WONT START!!! tomorrow he is bringing his code machine back over after he askes around about this POS tomorrow. any ideas on what might have made my car quit running??? i am just dieing to throw my money away on some other part that doesnt do any good, so just fling names out like you were tossing nickles!!!
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Old 10-24-2004, 08:27 PM
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well, it is a gm product. sol buddy.

i feel better for your venting though, if that helps.
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Old 10-24-2004, 08:33 PM
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Well a fuel pump and a pcm were two very common things to try. Can you hear the fuel pump run now? Do you have fuel pressure. If you are getting spark then most likely the crank sensor is good. When he brings the scanner check for cranking RPM just to be sure. If the fuel pump isn't working check fuel pump relay. Is the security light on? On the GM cars if the security light is on it will shut off the fuel injector pulses. By the way is this a 3.1 liter or is it a 4 banger? now i am not sure if you mentioned the year but some of the 6 cylinders 3.1 and 3.4 have two crank sensors. you can rule out fuel by taking off the air cleaner tube at the throttle body and spraying carb cleaner in the throttle body. If it runs it is fuel or security related. Fuel meaning cam sensor, pcm, or the ever so popular wiring problems. If it doesn't start then it is most likely not fuel and the real fun begins. I would check for spark at the end of the wires with a spark tester. sometimes they spark good at the coil but isn't a good enough spark to jump the plug gap. coils are also common on those engines. well hope i have given you some things to check. And hope i steer you in the right direction. good luck and keep us updated.
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Old 10-24-2004, 08:50 PM
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Easy check...

[Size=3]Doc here

Before you go nutz Chasin' stuff...Check the fuse marked "INJ" and The fuse marked ECM or PCM on the fuse panel also the fuse marked crank sensor (see photo fuses with astricks on them)...then go from there...

Will it run on life support? (starting fluid) If so eliminate the ignition...and go for fuel...

Check the pump pressure, you'll have to look it up but I think it may be around 45 psi...

Check the fuel filter.

Basically work forward from the pump to the intake runners..you should find it.

Doc
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Old 10-24-2004, 08:50 PM
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No start Grand Am

Switching the pcm was the prom switched from the old one to the new one?
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Old 10-24-2004, 08:58 PM
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If you give me the year of the car and the engine i can get you all the information you will need symtom charts wiring diagrams connector views ect.
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Old 10-25-2004, 01:24 PM
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hi again. it is a 1991. it will run if you pour gas down the top. there are no pulses. there are no fuses under the dash by the driver labeled anything other than ignition and all fuses there are good.

is there another fuse panel somewhere? i did not notice any security light being on. i can hear the fuel pump now. it will go on very briefly after cranking the car.

it is a 2.5 liter 4banger. thx braz
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Old 10-25-2004, 04:06 PM
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If you have no injector pulse but you have spark then the PCM is at fault. You said you replaced it. Did you swap over the prom from inside the old one? Aslo if you have no spark and no pulse the ignition module is bad. There is also always the chance that you got a bad pcm from the parts store.
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Old 10-25-2004, 05:51 PM
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EFI or TBI?

[size=3]Doc here

Is this an EFI or a TBI setup?

If it's TBI...Check the Red wire on both injectors...Should be 12 volts...If that's present, get a noid light, and check the other side of the injectors it should strobe while cranking.

(it is NOT ground, do not ground that side. it should be somewhere between 3.5 and 5 volts low, on a DMM and is supplied by the computer buffer..to ground it will burn one or both up!)

You may Have a courtesy Center in the middle of the steering Column on the lower dash on that car, don't know that for sure...but you would have to remove a small plastic panel to access it. Look in your owner's manual (if you still have it) for locations...The Hot side of the injectors is always fused, at least on TBI's!

Another test you can try is bring 12 volts to the hot side of the injectors and jumper it there ... (Be sure it's the hot side of the injectors) and try to start it...If it fires up, go looking for that fuse (s)

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Old 10-25-2004, 09:00 PM
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i did change the integrated circuit into the new module. as i said we do have spark and it does pulse VOLTAGE but not air/fuel. i dont know the difference btwn efi and tbi. it does NOT have individual injectors, just a carb like stupid thing that i guess is tbi. we think the blue wire is the ground and SOMETHING makes and breaks the ground to getta pulse. "We", being my friend and 3 other mr. goodwrenches (i always think that is just the most hokiest name ever) he talked to at work think i have an open in my blue wire to the injector. jees. sounds just like my moms stupid cadillac now. he is going to bring his code reading machine over tomorrow night or maybe this weekend. the only other thing i can do is since i have to sharpen up the point on my 12v test light to stab holes in cadillac wires, is to sharpen up the points on my digital ohm meter as well and start checking for opens after i unravel as much of the wiring harness as i can reach. hey this is real FUN! makes me almost want to go out and getta nuther d.u.i., cept i got nothin to DRIVE, cept my tempest nuts I did manage to get the motor mounts off my truck last night tho. one was mangled. i ordered another one today and it will be here tomorrow. wow, did they go up? $30 in summit w/o s&h, $43 from napa including tax gets it here tomorrow. i will use the core deposit money ($50) on the ECM. if it doesnt snow i can get my truck running tomorrow night if i grab a HUGE sack o'NUTS! (i.e. prolly aint gonna happen)
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Old 10-25-2004, 09:13 PM
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here is a wiring diagram of the fuel injection part of it. The ECM tells the injector to turn on from the dk blue wire. Either the ECM or that wire. It is just unusual for a wire to just get an open. Unless its been rubbing on something.
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Old 10-25-2004, 09:18 PM
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this diagram might also help you to check for cotinuity on the blue wire. it tells you what terminal it is on the pcm. Good luck!!!!
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Old 10-26-2004, 01:23 AM
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injector

[size=3]Doc here

From your description, t sounds like you have TBI (Throttle Body Injection) Consists of a throttle body and 2 injectors sticking out the top...

look at that injector diagram bigman posted...you'll find side "A" should be the 12 volts constant I was talking about...This is the most common on the injector to fail (because it has a fuse) Check that with the key on, and stick your light on that wire..It should light..If not Run down that fuse (follow the diagram back, you'll see the 20 Amp fuse ) If that's the case, replace it and you should be in business..that is also the wire I said to jumper to 12 volts for testing to see if it will run.

The other wire is the Low pulse from the computer...Whatever you do, DON'T ground it! Common error is to find ground missing at the "B" side...( a logical deduction, albeit, wrong) This receives a "Low" pulse 3.5 to 5 volts from the ECM to complete the injector fire pulse...Grounding this wire can take out the injector or the Computer buffer/driver...Use a Noid light to test it.


Good Luck!
Don't let those "BLUE WIRES" Get you down!

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Old 10-26-2004, 11:31 AM
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hey thanks. proving once again that this is the GREATEST SITE ON THE WEB! i will work on it either tonight or when i can. i want to get my truck going again as all it takes is the motor mount and it's a done deal. but i have to take my friend when i can get him and tonight might be my only chance. i printed the diagram and will show it to him as well as the caviat about grounding the blue wire. we are gonna run a continuity check on the blue wire to connector W-1. GRACIAS

friday. still no luck. havent been able to get my friend and his code reader back over here yet. he is from mosourri however in the hell you spell it, so had to watch his Cards lose and maybe this Sat we'll figure it out. i got way too many irons in the fire right now

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Old 10-27-2004, 07:41 PM
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Any luck on the no start?
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