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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2012, 11:28 PM
put up or shut up
 

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If there was ever a need to hide the seam to the extent of undetectable than the customer is paying for a full quarter. no need to do it. I'm sure I could do it. I'd use stud pins all over it to pull it flush while welding. Just saying, that's not the greatest advice to be giving an amateur.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2012, 11:47 PM
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ok then, so you're just speaking theoretically too. I know you guys don't like to listen to suggestions from us stupid amateurs, but I'm telling you, as an amateur, I butt welded that entire panel (twice, to be exact), and the panels don't go anywhere. They still stay perfectly lined up right along the cut. The other advantage was I had access to the entire back side so you could always push out a little on one of the panels if it looked like it was sitting in a little too far.

Now the second time through after I cut it back open and rewelded it, I used some techniques I observed you doing in one of your videos where you made a few tacks, planished to stretch, and then made some more tacks. Had I done this from the start I would have had a great seam by amateur standards. To the contrary, I've never done a flange weld on any of my repairs; I think it would be really difficult.

Now it wasn't perfect when I was done (the repair improved significantly though), and if I were to do another quarter skin just like this I know it would be much better. But I was still able to blend it in nicely with a skim of fiberglass then polyester filler. I can't feel a transition with my hand, but I haven't blocked it yet, nor have I seen it with any high gloss finish.

I understand your caution in good suggestions for an amateur, but as an amateur myself (with some formal training) I found it surprisingly easy. I think if you tried it you might surprise yourself.
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Old 08-17-2012, 12:04 AM
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actually, YOU are speaking theoretically. You don't even know at this point how it turned out. I'm speaking in practical terms from experience and from being accustomed to standard operation in the body shop.

No really, most shops don't do it cause it takes too long and they might not even trust the tech to do it right, and if it's not welded on right that thing might cave in on a small hit.

btw, are you talking about that quarter that I trouble shooted and figured out what was wrong with it? So do the lines match now? Shoot some pics.

I'd equate Martin's advice on this to telling a newb to wet sand clear with 600. Sure the guys explaining can do it well, real well, but that might not be the case with others. What I mean is....I've seen so many newbs take advice like that, go the extra mile to do things right, yet the car looks like crap in the end. not saying that's gonna be you but I've seen it SOOO many times that I almost want to suggest to all beginners to just spray single stage or get a couple gallons of slick sand and make it easier on themselves. Their next build a different story.

Last edited by tech69; 08-17-2012 at 12:14 AM.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2012, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
Martin, have you ever welded a seam that big doing an open butt weld, or are you just talking theory here? An open butt weld would be nice but I think it would be a nightmare to get the right angles to meet up.

I would suggest flanging it so he doesn't need a perfect fit and so the panel lays right. I do like doing it right below the top edge as it will only warp one way and that top area will actually minimize it cause the heat has somewhere to go that won't warp at all. I like both ways really but I don't think I'd try to open butt weld them.
I am not doing this stuff everyday but yes I did it all the time. I also suggest flanging for anyone not up to the butt weld. But honestly, butt welding is more of a line you need to cross. Once you cross it, you never look back. I am with you and have suggested with great argument to flange if butt welding is out of one's comfort zone, especially for a newbe. It is pretty overwhelming, but not impossible. Let me put it this way, if you screw up, just put a backing, done deal.

The trick is to get the panel fit well, clamped in and fit well BEFORE you mark it. I went to a Toyota training where they told us we had to butt weld everything with no backing. I went right back to the shop and started butt welding quarter panels, C pillars, rockers and the like. We are talking 22 gauge! I just started doing it, because they said to. Wham, it was as easy as pie and I never looked back.

But again, you are right in that I have defended the flange too. I have used them plenty, but honestly, I have used them too much. But in their defense I have never understood the arguments I have heard NOT to use them. The one that cracks me up the most is the whole "They are a moisture trap" The ENTIRE CAR is made from them! EVERY SINGLE joint on the ENTIRE car, on EVERY SINGLE CAR MADE is a flange, lap or pinch weld, the same exact "moisture trap" so what is one more on a car?

Running the flange right below that body line is going to be pretty much hidden unless you stick your head up in the quarter thru the trunk no one is ever going to see it.

But if you want to step it up a knotch, start butt welding. But you are right, I shouldn't be throwing butt welding such a long weld out there without knowing more about the experience of the poster, or his expectations.

Brian
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2012, 06:19 AM
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By the way, you know one thing that changed how close I got the seam dramatically was one day a co-worker came up to me when I was about to trim a new quarter and showed me to clamp the quarter on and cut both panels at once! LOL, simple but I had never done this. Everything is trimmed away and ready to go, you just leave the new quarter an inch or so longer than you plan at the seam. You clamp that quarter on tight checking the door fit and all. Once you have it in there tight, using a 1/32 cut off disc you cut thru both of them at once. Remove the new quarter and complete the trimming of the piece off the old quarter and wham, you have a perfect fit, with a 1/32" or so gap. Perfect for a backing, which the piece you cut off works perfect for that!

Brian
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
actually, YOU are speaking theoretically. You don't even know at this point how it turned out. I'm speaking in practical terms from experience and from being accustomed to standard operation in the body shop.

No really, most shops don't do it cause it takes too long and they might not even trust the tech to do it right, and if it's not welded on right that thing might cave in on a small hit.

btw, are you talking about that quarter that I trouble shooted and figured out what was wrong with it? So do the lines match now? Shoot some pics.

I'd equate Martin's advice on this to telling a newb to wet sand clear with 600. Sure the guys explaining can do it well, real well, but that might not be the case with others. What I mean is....I've seen so many newbs take advice like that, go the extra mile to do things right, yet the car looks like crap in the end. not saying that's gonna be you but I've seen it SOOO many times that I almost want to suggest to all beginners to just spray single stage or get a couple gallons of slick sand and make it easier on themselves. Their next build a different story.
In regards to the very specific concern you had--that it would be difficult to ensure the two panels stay at just the right angle--I am not speaking theoretically because I can say with complete certainty (because I witnessed it) that there was not an issue with keeping the panels properly aligned/mated.

I'm not advocating a butt weld or flange weld, especially since I've never done a flange weld. All I'm merely saying is when I did this, I did not experience the issue with difficulty in keeping the panels lined up, or pulled out, etc. That part was not difficult in the least.

The difficult part was keeping the panel from warping and taking it slow. Both times I welded in the panel I actually did it over the course of several days. The killer was the warpage doesn't begin to become real noticeable until maybe 50-70% of the welds were in. The second time around I treated it from the very first weld as if there was warpage because I knew there would be. The first time through when I did not see overt warpage I thought I was doing good. However, once that warpage became overt it was PISSED OFF and it was past the point of no return. And it was because of a different welding technique I was trying.

All said and done, you guys have piqued my interest in doing a flange weld on the next skin I do. I'd like to experience both to see what I like better. I can see how a flange would be preferable in a production shop if only from the standpoint that there's less welding time. I don't know how they are in warpage comparison. I would assume a flange weld would get less warpage.

Re: my quarter, I don't remember what you concluded you thought was wrong with it. I know it's the quarter. I set it too high, I didn't set it down against the rocker enough. That I know for sure because I was there and I did it. I haven't rehung the door again, but I know the lines won't match because I haven't actually changed anything yet. I'll need to put my best effort into hanging the door first before deciding what to do, at which point I'll have to go back through that thread again.

Back to the topic at hand, Brian put it well in his more recent post...eventually you just have to do it. My project is chalk full of 'just did it's.' I am still pretty happy with everything I've done and several body men who have looked at my work have been really impressed, but that's not to say it's still not without its fair share of imperfections, however subtle or unsubtle they may be (hopefully they are the former).
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
By the way, you know one thing that changed how close I got the seam dramatically was one day a co-worker came up to me when I was about to trim a new quarter and showed me to clamp the quarter on and cut both panels at once! LOL, simple but I had never done this. Everything is trimmed away and ready to go, you just leave the new quarter an inch or so longer than you plan at the seam. You clamp that quarter on tight checking the door fit and all. Once you have it in there tight, using a 1/32 cut off disc you cut thru both of them at once. Remove the new quarter and complete the trimming of the piece off the old quarter and wham, you have a perfect fit, with a 1/32" or so gap. Perfect for a backing, which the piece you cut off works perfect for that!

Brian
This is exactly how I did mine except I only cut through the original panel, using the top cut edge of the replacement panel as a guide. But this idea...actually cutting through both sounds a lot better! Live and learn...
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:49 AM
put up or shut up
 

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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
I am not doing this stuff everyday but yes I did it all the time. I also suggest flanging for anyone not up to the butt weld. But honestly, butt welding is more of a line you need to cross. Once you cross it, you never look back. I am with you and have suggested with great argument to flange if butt welding is out of one's comfort zone, especially for a newbe. It is pretty overwhelming, but not impossible. Let me put it this way, if you screw up, just put a backing, done deal.

The trick is to get the panel fit well, clamped in and fit well BEFORE you mark it. I went to a Toyota training where they told us we had to butt weld everything with no backing. I went right back to the shop and started butt welding quarter panels, C pillars, rockers and the like. We are talking 22 gauge! I just started doing it, because they said to. Wham, it was as easy as pie and I never looked back.

But again, you are right in that I have defended the flange too. I have used them plenty, but honestly, I have used them too much. But in their defense I have never understood the arguments I have heard NOT to use them. The one that cracks me up the most is the whole "They are a moisture trap" The ENTIRE CAR is made from them! EVERY SINGLE joint on the ENTIRE car, on EVERY SINGLE CAR MADE is a flange, lap or pinch weld, the same exact "moisture trap" so what is one more on a car?

Running the flange right below that body line is going to be pretty much hidden unless you stick your head up in the quarter thru the trunk no one is ever going to see it.

But if you want to step it up a knotch, start butt welding. But you are right, I shouldn't be throwing butt welding such a long weld out there without knowing more about the experience of the poster, or his expectations.

Brian
step it up a notch? What makes you think I don't open butt weld? I let my work do the talking. No need to talk myself up.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2012, 07:54 AM
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He's actually speaking to the original poster, not you directly in 'stepping it up a notch.'
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:56 AM
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Re: my quarter, I don't remember what you concluded you thought was wrong with it. I know it's the quarter. I set it too high, I didn't set it down against the rocker enough. That I know for sure because I was there and I did it. I haven't rehung the door again, but I know the lines won't match because I haven't actually changed anything yet. I'll need to put my best effort into hanging the door first before deciding what to do, at which point I'll have to go back through that thread again.
You're agreeing with what I said it was, so measure the distance between the top C line and the lower of the top two lines with tape marking the peak of the lines. If there's a difference at the edge to the door and other quarter you got your culprit. At that point line up your door to the lines you know are right and your rocker. Then, you'll know where that C line area needs to be.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:56 AM
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Henry, I can only go by what you tell me and you said you wouldn't butt weld that quarter. That is all I am referring to. It isn't a knock on you or anything of course we can see the beautiful work you do that Skylark is stunning.

Brian
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:08 AM
put up or shut up
 

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And as I was saying, I wasn't knocking you, I was knocking your advice given to an amateur.

I have that mindset ever since I saw this guy blow tons of money on his restoration and even flow coated the clear. I asked him why he's flow coating clear when the body wasn't even straight. He didn't have an answer. I guess he should have then at that point put a couple more apps of expensive clear on there to block.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:19 AM
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And as I was saying, I wasn't knocking you, I was knocking your advice given to an amateur.
You're right, advice given needs to be given properly and I broke a rule of mine tossing out butt welding it. If he has that info, along with info on flanging or butt weld with backing he can make an informed decision.

But you are very right, it's would be wrong to tell someone to do something that is over their head and they ruin their car because it.

Brian
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:30 AM
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You're right, advice given needs to be given properly and I broke a rule of mine tossing out butt welding it. If he has that info, along with info on flanging or butt weld with backing he can make an informed decision.

But you are very right, it's would be wrong to tell someone to do something that is over their head and they ruin their car because it.

Brian
it's only cause you have pride in what you do. No mistake about that and you are also giving him his options, as you stated. Heck, I'd venture to say part of me is a part of you thanks to your advice through the years.
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Old 08-19-2012, 07:39 AM
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Thanks guys. I was planning on going with skins and you guys seem to agree that's the way to go.
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