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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2012, 04:37 PM
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tap each runner and run the four vacuum lines into a vacuum accumulator, then run the MAP sensor, brake booster, etc off the vacuum accumulator.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2012, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blight
tap each runner and run the four vacuum lines into a vacuum accumulator, then run the MAP sensor, brake booster, etc off the vacuum accumulator.
You're on the right track here ^^. I heven't built one for a SBC, but I've built several for the 4.6L Northstar motors. the one shown is currently in my T bucket, and it works awsome. I love it.



First off, do NOT make the common error of confusing ITB and carbs when it comes to venturi size. with ITB, bigger is NOT better. you'll find that you don't need (or want) anywhere near the size venturi with ITB as you would with carbs. I use the GSXR 600 TBs for mine, which will support up to 400HP. If you're interested, I'll dig up some pics and info from my R&D when I built my first one of these a couple years ago. I think I can save you a lot of trial and error if you really want to do this. I bought TBs and a sbc manifold once to experiment with, but just haven't had the time yet myself.

here's a (poor) video of one of mine on a test stand. ya.... it works!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhoAR3UfLRo

Cheers,
Russ

Last edited by Northstar T; 01-18-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2012, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northstar T
You're on the right track here ^^. I heven't built one for a SBC, but I've built several for the 4.6L Northstar motors. the one shown is currently in my T bucket, and it works awsome. I love it.



First off, do NOT make the common error of confusing ITB and carbs when it comes to venturi size. with ITB, bigger is NOT better. you'll find that you don't need (or want) anywhere near the size venturi with ITB as you would with carbs. I use the GSXR 600 TBs for mine, which will support up to 400HP. If you're interested, I'll dig up some pics and info from my R&D when I built my first one of these a couple years ago. I think I can save you a lot of trial and error if you really want to do this. I bought TBs and a sbc manifold once to experiment with, but just haven't had the time yet myself.

here's a (poor) video of one of mine on a test stand. ya.... it works!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhoAR3UfLRo

Cheers,
Russ
YES PLEASE! diagrams research whatever you have please post!
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2012, 07:52 PM
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Wow. I didn't realize how many photos I lost during 4 years of computer upgrades and whatnot. I may have to take some new, more detailed, pics from my "spare parts" bin. but before I go to that trouble, lets see how dedicated to this project you really are . (remember I never said it was an EASY project)

to get your brain ticking….

I built an extension for the throttle shafts which mimic the way the stockers work. one end is carefully welded on to the oem throttle arm (watch the plastic bushings), wile the other end remains adjustable for sinc. just like the suzuki was. the mini ball joint is for the cross connection between cylinder banks.


Upper throttle shafts are removed and the holes plugged. also might be a good time to mention that I first made an adaptor to use a Caddy (remember mine was for the Northstar) TPS. that adaptor was a lot of work, but I later discovered the Suzuki unit works just fine also, so all mine use the Suzuki tps now. the electrical plug is hard to get by itself, but I may have a spare when/if you get that far.

The concentric throttle wheel on the Suzuki is way to sensitive for our use, so I designed a "cam", similar to what all auto manufactures use, which make throttle delivery more forgiving in the lower ranges, yet snaps open in the upper ranges.




For the IAC, I machined a block of aluminum which duplicates the "housing" for a stock caddy iac valve.


One fitting on the IAC block gets plumbed to adaptors I made in each TB where the Suzuki lower injectors once were, wile the other (hidden in photo) goes to a clean air source.

do you have access to a lathe and/or mill BTW???

That's good for a first lesson. So are you still ready to do this? let me know if you want another installment.

Russ
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2012, 07:36 AM
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I personally have no access to a lathe or mill, albeit my best friend does work for a cnc company in ramsey and has offered to make parts for me if need be. Something as thick at that iac housing I don't think they have the tooling for that though. They do mostly thinner plating etc We have talked about making engine mounts, and adapter plates etc.

Do you happen to have pictures for your map sensor solution- and where your tps is now located?

Lastly you mentioned sizing- i haven't received a pm about what I asked.

BTW amazing work you have there, If there is no sticky for itbs this should almost be one.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2012, 01:18 PM
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OK. here's a good site that should answer a lot of the FAQ on TB size, placement, runner length, etc.

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/jenvey/throt...envey-dynamics

And here's a pic of most of the major components I use. the black box is my accumulator for the map sensor and fuel pressure regulator only. I like to keep the map sensor by itself, as the more steady you can keep the signal, the more stable your engine will run. especially at idle with big cam and low vacuum (more on that later). hoses are tapped into each TB in the stock Suzuki vacuum ports.
The 3/8" tubing "manifolds" shown in the pic isn't actually the one I use, but it's similar and gives you the idea of how to set up your IAC. I've made adaptors to tap in at each TB where the lower injectors once were. the iac air gets metered in at those points to control idle. the masking tape "hose" to the iac block doesn't seem to hold air very well, but I'm working on that . there is another hose going in to the iac block that feeds it a clean air supply.
As far as power brakes and pc valve, I use another tubing manifold similar to the iac manifolds, but tap it in below each TB into the fabricated tubing intake manifold that I use for the Northstar. yours will look different, but function the same.

As far as tps. as I mentioned, I now use the stock Suzuki unit, as shown mounted to the TB in the lower right of pic.




It can get a little "busy" when completed, but with some planning it can work well AND look cool IMHO


Russ

Last edited by Northstar T; 01-19-2012 at 01:31 PM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2012, 01:26 PM
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BTW. I had purchased a (cheep) oem tpi manifold setup that I was gona play with. I figured that would solve many of the issues with injector placement and aiming, as well as having ready made injector rails, pressure regulator, and various sensors. just seemed easier to me, and if it worked out I figured I'd upgrade to an aftermarket TPI replacement manifold for better HP potential.

Just my thoughts on the subject. your milage may vary.

Russ
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2012, 10:02 AM
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russ;

your work is amazing. Ive always been a fan of the Northstar and often wondered why it never really took off in the Hot Rod community like it should have.

Keep the info flowing.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northstar T
BTW. I had purchased a (cheep) oem tpi manifold setup that I was gona play with. I figured that would solve many of the issues with injector placement and aiming, as well as having ready made injector rails, pressure regulator, and various sensors. just seemed easier to me, and if it worked out I figured I'd upgrade to an aftermarket TPI replacement manifold for better HP potential.

Just my thoughts on the subject. your milage may vary.

Russ

GREAT pics! what is that accumulator you ended up using?

I think as for a manifold I am going to use that cross ram intake and have them come off to the side. It saves room and I have found one company that has used that intake as a base model for their 3000 dollar itb setup (i think i can make all this for considerably less).

Keep up the info, it may be great for me, but I am not the only one here reading all this!
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoGear
russ;

your work is amazing. Ive always been a fan of the Northstar and often wondered why it never really took off in the Hot Rod community like it should have.

Keep the info flowing.
Thanks. I don't want to take over Blights thread any more than I already have however. I feel like I put the basic info out there on how I did my Northstar, so now it's time for Blight to show us how he does one for his SBC . I'm very anxious to see it done on the SBC myself actually.

The main reason the Northstar never really took hold in rods has always been the lack of a good ECM to run it. the 96+ oem unit is vertually imposible to hack and has issues like the OB diagnostics being in the dash unit, not the ecm. hard to hide a spare caddy dash in your hot rod . the Holly Commander was reprogramed and used on a few, but it was a real POS for that application IMHO. now that the Holly HP is available for the N*, that works really well, but engines like the LS are still easier to deal with and have the aftermarket support. I love the N*, but it ain't for everybody.

Russ
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2012, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blight
GREAT pics! what is that accumulator you ended up using?

I think as for a manifold I am going to use that cross ram intake and have them come off to the side. It saves room and I have found one company that has used that intake as a base model for their 3000 dollar itb setup (i think i can make all this for considerably less).

Keep up the info, it may be great for me, but I am not the only one here reading all this!
I also love the look of the cross ram manifold. there doesn't appear to be room to place the injectors dirrectly above the ports on that manifold, so you'll likely need to place them in the TBs?? there may be enough meat to have the TBs machined out to accept the larger automotive size injectors, but I actually haven't measured them with that in mind. doing this will mean fabricating your own fuel rails, but I recon that can be done. Maybe pick up a metal fuel rail like the N* unit to modify to your needs? that would also provide the receptacle for the fuel pressure reg as well.

I built the "accumulator" from a piece of 1" x 2" tubing with a chunk of angle capping off the ends. the angle provides a flange to attach it to my base. then just a simple piece of tubing of proper dimension to plug the MAP into on top, and 1'8" tubing brazed into the end for hose barbs.

Russ
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2012, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northstar T
I also love the look of the cross ram manifold. there doesn't appear to be room to place the injectors dirrectly above the ports on that manifold, so you'll likely need to place them in the TBs?? there may be enough meat to have the TBs machined out to accept the larger automotive size injectors, but I actually haven't measured them with that in mind. doing this will mean fabricating your own fuel rails, but I recon that can be done. Maybe pick up a metal fuel rail like the N* unit to modify to your needs? that would also provide the receptacle for the fuel pressure reg as well.

I built the "accumulator" from a piece of 1" x 2" tubing with a chunk of angle capping off the ends. the angle provides a flange to attach it to my base. then just a simple piece of tubing of proper dimension to plug the MAP into on top, and 1'8" tubing brazed into the end for hose barbs.

Russ
Here have some induction porn...

http://www.racetep.com/v8weber.html

http://www.kinsler.com/page--Home-Page--13.html

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8.../Misc/LSx2.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8.../Misc/LSx1.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...0CHEVYside.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...CHEVYfront.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8.../crossram2.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8.../crossram3.jpg
http://www.kinsler.com/manifolds2/GM...p_image008.jpg

this one here interests me most- i have no idea where to get this but i want one http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...i-IMG_1926.jpg
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2012, 06:36 PM
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So I just came across and issue with the x ram intake

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-CROSS-RA...item2a15e2319a

If you read the rpm range (other than the fact that its made by procomp...ew) it is quoted for only 1500-5500rpm... they also say its for a 40mm or 45mm about 45 or 48 is what I am estimating i need. and 5500 rpm is about 1000rpm short of what i need to hit.

I am having a custom grind on my cam once I get my heads to Justin at milten thunder heads in east bethel mn. Regardless of the flow the cam we talked about would have a 110 lsa a 110 icl (advance ground in prior to 110) a 236intake and 247exhaust duration. Justin is going to go through the cross section and see if we can make the head flow better at a higher lift. What ever that is is what the lift will be for the cam- more or less. The cam should come in no later than about 2500rpm and see as high as about 6600 rpm(ish) as a guesstimation.

Any thoughts or suggestions? I mean hell at that point tune port injection would be just as good aside the increase in throttle response.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:47 PM
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The tpi is pretty much done after 5400rpm, i just couldn't remember the upgrade. Did some digging I found this guy

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-7540/

Not to expensive. i also have access to a 86 iroc tpi setup (entire setup sensors/harness/ecu/intake/etc)

unfortunately they did not switch from maf to map until (i think) 88' on the iroc, but the 87 and newer is a different intake type (bolt holes).

a stealth ram for tpi is good for 6500...
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2012, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blight
The tpi is pretty much done after 5400rpm, i just couldn't remember the upgrade. Did some digging I found this guy

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-7540/

Not to expensive. i also have access to a 86 iroc tpi setup (entire setup sensors/harness/ecu/intake/etc)

unfortunately they did not switch from maf to map until (i think) 88' on the iroc, but the 87 and newer is a different intake type (bolt holes).

a stealth ram for tpi is good for 6500...
early tpi maf can be easily converted to MAP, and the bolt pattern can be easily "clipped" to work on later heads. as to the RPM limitations, yes, the tpi manifold isn't going to give you max rpm, where I would expect the weber cross ram to be pretty good. they are saying 40-45 weber venturi size, but with injection I would expect better results. These are mostly decisions you need to make yourself, based on your expectations however. when you do your own designing, you have to be willing to accept failures and multiple attempts sometimes. If you must have high rpm potential out of the box, then you may want to bite the bullet and pay for the Kinsler or other pro setup.

Russ
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