I don't know what "obtrusive" ads you think there are on youtube. They're just little text things off to the side put up by google, and they ARE targetted to whatever you searched for, that's the main selling point.

no, there's no spyware, spam or annoying ads on youtube at all. What was I thinking??

there's spam in the comments, but those are seperate from the website financially, and against the site's rules. Infact, they're almost the exact same thing as what PowerTV did that you're defending.

I'm not "defending" so much as explaining.

It's being presented as if this is some big scandal. it's not.

We run an automotive enthusiast website, just like the people who run this one do. We aren't involved with PowerTV other than as "end users" that knew going into this what the parameters were.

Anyway, didn't come here to argue with people. It is what it is.

But, have you not noticed???

There is absolutely no advertising on the forum pages here at all.
This is the only board that I visit that there is no advertising on the pages.

If this site had sponsors, I would expect to see banners attempting to get one's interest into their product. (I see that on other boards)

Even the members here that run their own businesses or manufacture for the automotive enthusiasts do not promote there wares on this board.


If an individual is intelligent enough to register here, they sould be inteligent enough to understand (NO ADVERTISING)(except in the classifieds).

PowerTV has been posting links to their videos on these forums for years. They have conveniently failed to mention that they are getting paid to make those videos for the advertisers, and that they are getting paid to promote them. It's against our Terms of Service. Willfully violating the TOS is illegal. It's illegal on our forums, and on many others. That's not such a big deal if you're a small guy, accidentally mentioning his company name. It is a big deal if you're a large marketing firm, working to promote numerous big-name parts manufacturers.

Read this: http://spankmymarketer.com/tenneco.html . See how Tenneco changed their position after they went to a web-savvy law firm? It's because the new lawyer told them that what they were doing was illegal.

I emailed and called PowerTV. Communicated with James (their CEO), and Melissa, and asked them to stop. They wouldn't stop spamming us. I don't know if that's because they're using bots, or because they just don't care. They're also spamming forum admins by email.

We've made a lot of sacrifices here to keep our board completely free of advertising. It's wrong for PowerTV to take advantage of that.

The "videos" that they're making -- they're advertisements. It's called "advertiser-funded programming", or "AFP". For example, a company called RTM productions produces numerous "hot rod shows" that appear on mainstream television. Here's a link to their advertiser page: http://powerblocktv.com/Advertise.htm . Do you see how it says:



Note how they say: "tailor show content to benefit your bottom line". That's AFP. More on AFP is here: http://www.thinkbox.tv/server/show/...t/conwebdoc.133 , and on Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advert...ded_programming .

Forum folks tend to be more media-savvy than people who don't go online regularly. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people who don't realize that the shows are completely scripted, and created for the advertisers.

PowerTV is exactly the same. They're posting the videos as if they're "reporters" who just happened to be "covering" these motorsports events, like a CNN reporter covering an election. Really, the companies are paying them to make and promote the videos. Here's a PDF link to PowerTV's "rate card" -- the list of prices that they charge manufacturers for making and promoting videos about them: http://powertvmedia.com/docs/PowerTV_RateCard2008.pdf . More details are on their advertising page: http://powertvmedia.com/advertising.html .

Virtually everything that PowerTV is doing can be done through YouTube. YouTube is owned by Google, who has a better reputation for ethics.

Just from Googling, I've noticed that 6 other forums have already publicly exposed PowerTV:

http://turbobuick.com/forums/turbo-...3-new-site.html
http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1020761
http://www.webrodder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7514
http://forums.luvtruck.com/viewtopic.php?t=15071
http://forums.godragracing.com/viewtopic.php?t=57729
http://208.122.20.138/forums/showthread.php?t=71534

I imagine that many more will follow as more people realize what's been happening.

Jon, I got your PM and replied in kind.

Our perspective was/is from the point of view that we basically gave them permission to do these things, so that's why I wondered what the big deal was. But obviously, if they are doing these things in places where the website's owners have clearly indicated that they do NOT want to have this crap promoted, then by all means you are 100% right to be VERY upset.

I'd block them at the firewall.

As I said, I replied in detail to your PM...

Might as well tell the truth!

You know, the internet is giving Spam a bad name. I like the stuff, open a can, fry a few slices with the eggs.....

I think the crux of the issue is simple. If you as a website allow ads and promotion based on agreements you have made, great. If you don't, then the promoters shouldn't try to get in the back door. It's trespassing, virtual style. Now if a couple kids use my yard as a shortcut to the next street, I am not getting too excited, but if they start selling Christmas trees in my driveway, that's another thing, isn't it?

JON


I Can't help but notice , as soon as you log in to the bulletin board , you get bombarded with the BOLDED versions of all these companies names. GM , HOLLEY , etc. , etc....
That's promotion in some form or another.
Maybe part of their ' stealth ' is actually getting administrators to post their names , in BOLD , on the main pages of various websites......
what a plan......

it's working , too.

I say , change the names up to parody them...Holley / HARDLEY , General Motors ? how bout General Morons? Sema ? nope . SEMEN. Comp cams ??? how bout CRAP Cams.
Use a little imagination , and if they get upset with you parody names , just explain that those parodies aren't copyrighted , and you are free to call them whatever you'd like.
It's your website.

Just a thought.....
Mike

Corral Dude; Your post is very interesting but has some major flaws in logic.

1) Doesn't matter to us that band width is expensive and our site is relatively expensive. We (Jon) are self funded and have jealously protected that status. We (Jon) are willing to stay that way so cost is not an issue. Never has been. You have chosen to go another funding route at your forum and more power to you. However we should be allowed to do it our way too.

2) Power TV has been totally up front with their MO but so has Hothrodders.com. We don't allow ANY advertising save for that in the advertising section. Period. Has been VERY clear that is our policy from day 1 and every day since. ANYONE who has visited our site more than a couple times has gotten that message. Power TV has had to resort to lying and deception to try to circumvent that policy. We don't want that type of person here and hope they leave our site permanently. This has been a lonely outpost in the web wilderness standing for 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way'. We even edit out profane language we are so prudish. That is unique in the web world but it sure makes for a pleasant place to hang out and bench race for rodders of any age or persuasion.

3) Melissa may be 100% real and just doing her job but she LIES! She doesn't have 5 cars and drag racing/all auto sports/Mustang/Buick/NASCAR/street rods/other/other/other (fill in the blank for Melissa's passion depending on your forum topic) are NOT her single passion. She lies. We don't like liars here.

4) Then as Jon points out, there's that little thing with it being illegal but I am not sure if that matters any longer. All depends on what the definition of "is" is I guess.

The point I was making with my comments are/were that it was supposed to be an "exchange" of sorts- They would provide a service that, if you WANT IT, is actually somewhat useful and can save a lot of money, spam notwithstanding. Flaw in logic or flaw in interpretation? Depends upon your point of view I suppose... I applaud the operators of this forum for keeping it free of advertising. I personally can't afford to subsidize my club's website out of my pocket. We choose to generate the needed revenue to keep the server online via advertiser contributions. Those advertisers, in turn, provide many specials for our members. We do not charge membership dues. That's how we choose to do things, and it has nothing to do with this discussion but is worth mentioning for the sake of mentioning it.





As stated, I agree 1000000000% that if they were asked to stop and refused to do so, that is very, very sucky and I'd have a huge problem with that. As for the "lying" I would also find it hard not to agree that this does not paint the whole PTV thing in a very positive light and is/was a huge error in judgement.

Anyway, we all share a common fondness for the Hotrod Hobby. So to that end, I wish all who read this a Happy New Year and may 2008 bring you good times and friendship.

Actually, when we want the benefits of access to web site advertisers, we can mosey over to your site!!

Since I am a reletave new comer to this message board,I was really surprised when I opened my mail this morning to find this link. As it happens the link was to a message board that I would normally have spent much more time on but going in a different direction car wise I only remember the "Post" and thought at the time,all the single guys will be all over this "Power Melissa" chick LOL. Since I pretty much only watch "Broadcast" TV (no cable or satellite) I never see any of the shows,I just hear about them.I can see I'm not really missing much.I dont have that much extra time,so Thank You all for the "Heads Up".I will be spending my money very carefully and "Advertisers" should be very carerfull who they "Piss" off. Regards .... Lang ....

The cable car how-to shows aren't that bad really. In fact I really enjoy some of them, especially the Muscle Car one since they do down and dirty stuff like making fiberglas fender flares from scratch, fix rusty uni-bodies, make floor pans, fix dents in stainless trim, installing body patch panels, etc. They even show some detail, not just fancy camera angels and snippets here and there. Almost a New Yankee Workshop for steel. Not quite, NO ONE can compete with Norm but it ain't too bad. I don't begrudge them pushing advertiser's stuff, it's out in the open and, hey, you need some part to plunk in that spot, why not charge the guy who supplied it, make him a buck in ads and make yourself a buck in fees. That's the American way.

However, when this broad comes on our site and flat out lies to try to circumvent our site rules, I have no sympathy. I hope she goes out of business. And I have no sympathy for the car supplier companies who participate in criminal activity. Just because they supply a widget that folks need doesn't exempt them from ethical norms. Nuke 'em. Some one else will fill the void, probably make a superior widget, and hopefully be more ethical. That's the American way too. We have a lot of freedom and along with that comes a lot of responsibility for your actions. That latter point has been lost in the haze in recent decades. Guess it all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is.