Please re-read your initial post. You said: "You've never contacted me about this issue", not "I never received it". Those are two different things.

You're wrong about TOS being legally binding. I've PM'd you some links to clarify that issue for you. In the future, please take the time to do a basic Google search prior to implying that I'm failing to understand the law. Another option would be to ask PowerTV directly if they broke the law. I'd be interested to hear what they have to say.

I feel that we have an obligation to inform other forums as to what's happening. I understand that you feel differently.

I was thinking about my post on The Corral, and if you think about it from my viewpoint, not getting an email is the same as not being contacted. An attempt to contact is just an attempt until it's successful.

I'll admit that I haven't done any research on how legally binding a TOS is. I just don't see why you'd take the time to pursue any type of legal action when you could just ban them and let it go. It would probably give you some spare time to do something else since it looks like you've put a lot of time into this issue. After all, there is a difference between being paid to post videos, and being paid to make videos. There is a lot of fine print on both sides of the argument that could be easily misunderstood.

I appreciate being warned about a potential threat, and appreciate that you can see my point of view.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you on the definition of "contact". I do feel that your initial post here could've been more diplomatic, and I'm beginning to think that, just maybe, you agree with me .

We're not taking legal action against PowerTV. We're making a point that what they're doing isn't only unethical, it is in fact illegal. It's important to bring up, especially as James is implying in his Corral.net post that he's not pursuing this legally because he's not "a lawsuit guy". Really, it was them that broke the law, and not me. I think it's wrong of him to even hint at such a thing, especially in light of the legal reality of the situation.

You're right -- I've put a great deal of time into this, and I imagine I will be putting a great deal more. This issue is extremely important to me. My thought is that if we don't fight this now, in a few years, forums will be just like the mags.

Yep, it was bad enough when a lot of the magazines started gearing the majority of their articles towards promoting advertisers products.

Now almost all of the automotive shows which I used to enjoy are being skewed into promotional vehicles.

I'm a very firm believer is standing up for what you feel is right.

After all, if you don't stand up for others, in the end who is going to stand up for you?

They do the same thing on college campuses. They send in plants, maybe paid students or employees that are not students, to mingle with unsuspecting students to talk about products that they say they have used and are excited about. They never let you know that they are working for an advertising company.

but doesn't the ultimate responsibility fall on each of us to make our own decisions? advertisers don't force you to use their product. if you feel that something is skewed one way or the other, don't watch it, or participate. if you don't like the ads in a magazine, don't buy it. too often lately in this country people like to shift the blame from themselves to someone or something else.

basically, i think that all the attention you're giving this is going to have the opposite effect that you want and is giving their site(s) more hits instead of less. just think of all the people that will click the links, or visit one of their sites to see what all the fuss is about. in this kind of situation, negative advertising is still advertising. they make money off how many times ads are viewed, and web hits = views.

if you really wanted to him them in the pocket book, where it hurts, you'd cut them off from posting on your forum and focus on getting other forums to do the same instead of continuing with the negative ad campaign. it would also help your first impression credibility for those of us that aren't negatively impacted by the whole deal.

that's just my opinion though

LOL i'm more of a shoot from the hip, tell it like i see it kind of guy than diplomatic... sometimes that works out, other times, not so much, but every time you'll know exactly where i'm coming from.

some of your points i agree with, and some i don't. debates are healthy as long as everyone can keep an open mind and see the other party's perspective. that whole three sides to any story thing

wow........ didn't think I'd end up agreeing with you, but here we are , on the same side of the fence.
go figure.
anyways - you make some valid points. I already called the stealth advertising bullseye though. Yep , we might be spotlighting their sneaky , underhanded ways of promoting certain brands , but we are doing it at the cost of promoting those brands. all publicity , good or bad is still publicity.
I have seen ads in the past that made me NOT buy a product , just to stick it to the company who made the beforementioned terrible ad.
Heck , I quit subscribing to Playboy a few years ago , because I couldn't stand to read the garbage they tried to shovel down peoples throats.( hot girls = , tree hugging veegans = )My "Hot Rod" magazine subscription went the way of the Dodo , too.
I am glad this site is commercial free , and many , many thanks to Jon for fighting to keep it that way.
I personally will not be buying any of their products in the future.
who's wit me?

Sometimes, you don't even know that someone is a marketer, so you're powerless to just "turn it off". 55BigBlock gave a good example with stealth marketing that is done on college campuses. Another example is how Sony Ericsson Mobile paid actors and actresses to hang out at the Empire State Building, behaving like tourists, and asking people to take their pictures with their new mobile phone/digital camera. It's a stealth "product demonstration".

PowerTV posted as if they were a TV company, "reporting" on certain events. They didn't say that the companies were paying them to make and promote the videos as advertisements for their products.

I understand that people are wondering why we don't just "ban" them. We very rarely ban people here, unless it's a blatant, obvious spambot.

"Negative publicity" is indeed still publicity, but, in this case, I think we're making the right move by exposing PowerTV. They'll get some "traffic" to their site, but I doubt it will balance out what's going to happen when more people find out what they've been doing. Difference of opinion though, nothing more we can say about that until we see how it pans out.

First impression credibility is indeed always difficult. However, I've noticed that the more people research this issue beyond their first impression, they more they seem to realize that we're telling the truth, and PowerTV is not.

No they don't ... BUT... they use underhanded, sneaky, devious means to try to convince you to buy their product. Its one thing if you decide not to buy a magazine or watch a show if you don't like the advertising but its entirely something else to be bombarded with advertising under the guise of honest posts, especially when you don't want it AND it violates your terms of use.

One also has to wonder why your IP address comes back to Charlotte NC when you say your in Southaven, Mississippi.

__________________
Centerline
HotRodsAndHemis.com

i have no idea.. i'm on Bellsouth DSL. and it comes back to mem.bellsouth.net for me.

my other posts were made from the hospital i work at, and it comes back as such too.

i've pretty much got two IPs that i'm going to post from. i'd be happy to compare them with the one you have via PM and see if they match up.

It's weird. Try putting your IP in one of the IP locator sites like http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm and see what happens.

__________________
Centerline
HotRodsAndHemis.com

well that site is just flat out wrong, unless what it's reporting is the AT&T main office. i send my bill to Atlanta, so who knows.

run a tracert from a command prompt for the IP of this post. you'll see that it resolves to mem.bellsouth.net. I'm about 3 miles from the TN state line, and Memphis city limits.

and another good tool to resolve IPs into host names is www.arin.net/whois

So Jon... We had a big snowstorm here yesterday and I had time to sit down and really read over ALL the links on your "spankmymarketer" thing.

I've had some time to think about this whole thing (I have a lot of other things like business and family to think about most of the time)

Some things have occurred to me. There are some points I would like to make, and some questions I have. Some of them may be seen as provocative, but you do strike me as someone who is capable of carrying on a deep dialog and presenting a reasonable retort... So with that said...

One point or observation I would like to make here, with regard to "spam" and "marketing" and "publicity", is that prior to this topic and being made aware of it, I personally had never heard of your forum/website. I see you have The Corral in your resources database, and for that we are very thankful.
Obviously, there are many others like myself who had never heard of your website, or you for that matter.
What if the tables were turned here, and someone accused YOU of being a Marketing Genius by taking advantage of this situation and using it as a vehicle to promote YOUR forum in the hopes of building membership? Granted, it seems to me on the surface that your intent here is to provide a resource for the Hotrodding community, and you don't take advertising, but regardless, having exposure helps your venture by generating more interest and keeping people talking about it, which translates to more traffic. So, aren't you in effect reaping some benefit here by your campaign against all those listed on your website? In a twisted sort of way, I, along with probably thousands of other people, heard about your venture thru the actions you have taken. I'm not saying it's a bad thing (I truly think, after spending time looking this website over, that you have done something tremendous for the people who take part in the Hotrodding hobby) but you can't deny that you are gaining exposure thru your actions and crusade.

The other thing I wish to bring up, and I think it needs to be discussed, is your attack on SEMA.
Obviously, anyone with an ounce of awareness knows that SEMA is a tool for the aftermarket to promote products and services. At the same time, people who are heavily involved in the hobby this website caters to BUY and USE many of those products; without the products many of these people would be unable to complete projects or compete with them, be it in a car show or a racing series.

But that is secondary to much larger issues. Stay with me here. If you have read this far and I still have your attention, please consider- SEMA also does a tremendous amount of good for all of us that are into Hotrodding, racing, or high performance driving thru the SEMA Action Network. They have done a lot for the very audience that your website caters to- HOTRODDERS!! They have prevented legislation in several states that threaten the very core of what your website is about. Perhaps someone will come up with some "scandal" and claim what I have said here is false, feel free. But I think in a way by going after SEMA, you are also going after SEMA Action Network, and you are in effect, shooting yourself and your following in the foot so to speak. These people are doing a tremendous lot for all of us, how is what you are doing helping anyone? We live in a capitalist society, making a profit is what drives our economy, and advertising and marketing play a rather large role in that, like it or not.

No doubt some of you reading this have older cars, and in case you are/were not aware, many of the things SEMA Action Network does/did have been of tremendous benefit to you and your hobby. I hate to see this overlooked.

http://www.semasan.com

Having said all this, I personally have no stake whatsoever in either PowerTv or SEMA. I am very much like you are in that I have spent a tremendous amount of personal time as well as personal funds, to create and maintain places where people who share the "car hobby" can meet, network and share info, ideas and experience. I also donate my time to The Corral, I do not get any sort of benefit whatsoever for the work I do for them.

Lastly, I want to say, I DO agree that some of things I have read here, like the "fake username/threat" thing, are just wrong and show an alarming lack of judgment. I think some mistakes clearly have been made and they need to be fixed. But we need to realize also, that without some of these companies and the things they do, we would have no hobby at all. Do they stand to gain from hobbyists? Of course they do, this is America! But it's kind of a two-way street. I buy a lot of things for my cars, and obviously the companies that made these products profited from me, but I NEED this stuff, I WANT this stuff, and it's my choice to buy or not to buy.

I've said what I wanted to say. I am open to retort and will take it in stride.

Sorry for the book, but what better thing to do on a cold and snowy Saturday morning??





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[QUOTE=Corral Dude]What if the tables were turned here, and someone accused YOU of being a Marketing Genius by taking advantage of this situation and using it as a vehicle to promote YOUR forum in the hopes of building membership? ...................[ /QUOTE]

Which benefits him how , exactly? Every bit of info I've gotten from this site was for free.
This site is just plain awesome. Others should be so wise and noble.
[QUOTE=Corral Dude]
Granted, it seems to me on the surface that your intent here is to provide a resource for the Hotrodding community, and you don't take advertising, but regardless, having exposure helps your venture by generating more interest and keeping people talking about it, which translates to more traffic...............
Lay by the fireplace with Mama bear.........
or fire up the snowplow and clear the driveways.... it's up to you.
I'm going with Mama bear.