He did, they did, someone else did. This site, Jon and many of the rest of us have a problem with people that don't, first of all follow the Terms of Service(TOS), then when apprised of the problem say they'll stop, but go right on. If Jon sent you an email describing what he feels is a problem, and you, Booger, didn't get it - well, that's life. Heck, I occasionally do not receive an email from my wife at work, and she works only 3 miles from me. Let's, Jon, get on with the problem that we at Hotrodders have. Booger, if you don't have a problem at your forum with "Power" Melissa and the Power Block type of advertising, speaking for myself and probably many(most?) others here for sure don't have one with you. Go for it - this argument you and Jon have should be taken off the public forum and into PMs if you feel it's still necessary to continue.

I do have a problem with the Power Block shows ( I did tune in since my first post). I don't like some dweeb shouting at me about how he is doing his work - and it is nothing but a big commercial for whatever parts they are installing at that time - with product names being pounded at me every other sentence. They are dumbing down the hobby much the way most automobile enthusiast mags are doing. I've subscribed to many of them at one time or another with the only one now being Street Rodder - and that ain't what it used to be - good bathroom reading now.

Dave

I did the snow removal thing already, all the while seeing my shinny speed machines sitting there in the garage, longing to bang some gears... It's already been a long winter in these parts and it's not even January yet.

Those of you that live where the winters are mild, take the rod for a ride and realize just how lucky you are.

As for Mama Bear... hmmm... we do have a fireplace...

Corral; I agree with you it may seem Jon may be trying reverse advertising with this campaign. I would believe that too if I hadn't been on this site for the past 4 or 5 years and have gotten to know Jon pretty well. When I first got here I couldn't believe the quality I was getting for absolutely free. Better than the stuff in the old rod mags when they weren't product installation manual reprints. I urged Jon to start advertising, charging SOMETHING for the meatier parts of the site or extracting some sort of funding for what he has created. I know precious little about how all this web stuff works but I know when something MUST be costing a fair amount to do and this site surely qualifies. Jon very gently rebuked me and refused monetary help. He has done so several times since then when concerned citizens like me come on and suggest he charge something. The only $$ he extracts from us is for Hotrodders.com T-shirts and that is only to cover costs and we had to drag him kicking and screaming to even do that 'cause we wanted the shirts!

Hard as it is to believe, Jon appears to be a pure idealist who means exactly what he says; he maintains the integrity of this site at all cost. I challenge you to find profane language in any of the several 10s of thousands of posts on this site. It just ain't allowed. Jon is Quixote-esque in his defense of the hot rod bulletin board community (took on the Australian government when a hot rodding site there was under attack and gave them FREE band width here to stay on-line , started the Crankshaft Coalition to prop up smaller rod web sites, took on this ILLEGAL and LYING ad campaign, etc.).

In short, say what you will about Jon, he is the real thing. You can accuse him of something but self promotion and monetary gain isn't one of them.

I didn't say I thought he was doing it intentionally. I only suggested that others may see the irony, that's all. I think the fact that he does not allow advertisers, and it appears he's footing the bill for the bandwidth would indicate that he does not have an agenda other then what we see at face value.

I believe I went out of my way to be extremely complementary.

But I do wonder what some of you, especially a guy like you who clearly has an older hot rod or two or three, thinks about SEMA SAN, and how this whole thing could injure the good work they do on our behalf? Were you aware of them and what they do? What is your take on that aspect of my ramblings?

Corral Dude -- Obviously, this situation will bring publicity to us, and yes, that is slightly ironic. However, that is certainly not my initial intent. You'll note that, with SpankMyMarketer.com, I almost got sued by Discovery. That's a high price to pay for some publicity. With the Aussies, we took on the Australian government, and we won. To even imply that I'm doing this to bring publicity to this site is, in my opinion, unfair. There are better ways to publicize your site, without risking your neck. Furthermore, the fact that we have run these forums without advertising for all these years offers long-term proof that our best intentions are clearly not financial. I think that as you invest more research into this situation, you'll realize that such an implication is inaccurate and unfair.

Regarding SEMA's legislative work. Two quick points.

First -- SEMA represents marketers. They are the Specialty Equipment Market Association. Yes, they do legislative work that benefits us. However, SEMA sticks up for hot rod companies, not for hotrodders per se. If there were legislation that were favorable to hot rod companies, but hurt hotrodders, whom do you think they would support? The companies, that's who. Because that's who they represent. SEMA SAN doesn't work "on our behalf". They work on behalf of the companies and marketers in the industry. I would be willing to bet that if you examined each piece of legislation that SEMA has supported, you would find that they indeed supported legislation that benefited hot rod companies, but hurt the individual hotrodder.

Second -- in the hot rod industry, people perceive SEMA as a huge, powerful group that sticks up for our rights in congress. Probably because they're being marketed as such, just like a part is marketed as "bolt-on 100 horsepower". Those who do the research gain a very different perspective.

It's easy to research much money special interest groups are actually spending to lobby the government for their particular causes. Here's a list of the top-spending automotive groups for 2007: automotive lobbying spending database, top 2007 spenders. Last year, automotive groups spent more than $32.9 million dollars lobbying the government for automotive interests. General Motors was the top spender, contributing $6.2 million, followed by the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, who contributed $4.6 million, and followed by Ford, who contributed $3.5 million.

Do you know how much SEMA actually spent lobbying the government last year to "protect our rights"? $70,000. SEMA 2007 lobbying activity.

Keep in mind that lobbying figures are not an exact representation of how much a group is putting towards effecting legislation, but they're an excellent way to estimate.

Which do you think SEMA spends more money on? Protecting our rights in the government, or stealth marketing to us?

--
If SEMA was sincere in their relationship with us, they would've given us an honest apology for their sponsorship of the "Spank My Monkey" campaign. They didn't, and, in fact, here we see SEMA again, supporting unethical forum marketing by working with PowerTV. Once again, they are working on behalf of the marketers and the companies, not the actual hotrodders themselves.

If hotrodders want a political group that sticks up for their interests, they will have to form it on their own. It will have to a non-profit organization, run mostly by volunteers. There are many, many, many other similar political organizations.

In politics, never confuse a paid special interest group run by companies with a non-profit group run by citizens.

Jon, by chance are you a lawyer yourself? If you aren't, then you should be one. (That's a compliment, not a dis!)
With regard to the last line above, we could engage in a debate just about that point; are companies not started by citizens?
Isn't the government at all levels comprised of citizens and aren't special interest groups also a collection of citizens? My life experience has taught me that EVERYONE has some sort of angle Jon. Perhaps that's a pessimistic
outlook, but that's how I feel.

I would be a liar here if I didn't say that the more I allow myself to become "involved" in a dialog with you, the more I find my opinions being swayed. But that does not constitute backpedaling in my eyes; it means that I am developing a more polished viewpoint based on the strong arguments you have made. But I still feel that SEMA is not simply an evil profit-driven enterprise that cares nothing about me or my hobby.

I also detected a bit of distress in your quote about what I implied as being unfair- I did not post that with the intent of trying to discredit you or your efforts, I did so as a means to further this discussion, and like I expected, your reply was well thought out and presented.

I expected nothing less, and you did not disappoint.

Thanks, but no, I'm not a lawyer. I'm essentially just a standard computer nerd.

Yes, companies are composed of citizens. When citizens are in a company, they are acting on behalf of the company, to promote the company's interests. When citizens are acting independently of a company, on their own, they are acting to promote the interests of citizens.

I don't perceive SEMA as inherently evil. In fact, many of the SEMA member companies with whom I've spoken have come across as decent, cool people. A lot of them thanked for me letting them know exactly what SEMA is doing on forums. SEMA represents marketers and companies, so that's naturally their primary interest. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but people need to understand that, so they can take what SEMA says with a grain of salt. Same as how we don't believe everything that a parts manufacturer says about their latest and greatest performance part.

Regarding irony, I thought you would appreciate this. Check out Tenneco's lobbying spending for 2007. Even they spent more than SEMA: $100,000.

Now that's ironic .

Right Jon, and Britney Spears is the Mother of the Year for 2007.....


All of this open clarity of dialog has also eased some of my same thoughts about publicity and SEMA, except about how SEMA (with so many companies involved with them) may try to twist the hotrodding community against the morally correct (guys like all of us on this forum--minus thong wearers of course...). Jon, you Da Man!

In a while, Chet.

__________________
It's not what you take with you when you leave, it's what you leave behind you when you go.

Corral; I reject your contention that we need to support illegal and immoral activities of SEMA and parts suppliers just because we buy their widgets. If they don't follow basic ethics, I say nuke'em. Someone else will come along who learn from the miscreants and make better widgets with higher ethical standards. Let's raise the bar a little instead of seeking the lowest common denominator all the time. "Is" does not have an ambiguous meaning. And no animus intended here, just spirited dialog. We don't allow our threads to get nasty. Just speak your piece, we will respect you.

"Illegal and immoral"

A bit over-sensational, don't you think?
Do you have the same disdain for the tobacco companies and beer/liquor companies that try to manipulate our younger people into addiction for the sake of life-long profits? We're still talking about auto parts aren't we???
This just in: A Holley 4160 is not habit-forming...

And, being a former resident of The People's Republic of California, and having a clear recollection of just what "Not legal for use on any public highway in the State of California" means, and seeing "California Emissions Package" on the window sticker, I would think you, living out there in the land of rules and regs, would have a more open mind and appreciation for what SEMA SAN does. You just might find that your ability to legally operate your pride and joy being taken away from you. Maybe you'll wake up when some well-intentioned citizens group decides you should not be able to drive that "rolling environmental disaster" you so dearly love.
(last sentence is blatant sarcasm and does not reflect the views of the post author)

Just think, then there won't be a market at all for those evil SEMA members to try to manipulate and torture in the name of profits!!

I'm starting to think you guys might feel better living in a communist regime where the evil profit motive won't drag down your existence...

A lot of discussion about money and profits in the last few posts, and while it is relevant in some way, I think it misses the main point of honesty:

Be who you say you are.

New folks come on the board from time to time with a plug for their business and a moderator tells them advertising isn't allowed. That's generally the end of it.

If Melissa Lawrence or anybody else comes on the board to talk cars, as long as they are honest and straightforward rather than trying to sneak around a rule, no one cares. I doubt Chip Foose or Boyd or even Blue Bear are on here, but if they are, as long as they follow the rules and basic etiquette, they would be welcome.

Greg, you haven't spent a lot of time here, but the moderators and long time users get irritated with people who aren't who they say they are (pretending experience they don't have, etc.) too.

The surface dishonesty of some stealth marketing campaigns bothers me more than TOS violations. I know the cute girls passing out cigarettes at the races are paid. I know that a lot of TV shows are getting product placement fees. I know that Ford Motor Company paid to have only Ford cars featured on "The FBI" TV series in the 60s, it was in the credits.

Honesty is the best policy, and when companies and people forget that they generally wind up with problems and other people p----d at them.

That trancends hotrodding.

Oh, I agree 100% percent about "be who you say you are"

I am who I say I am, I do not hide behind a keyboard, I am somewhat well known, as I have been involved in the internet as a coder since it was launched. I work for one of the oldest dragstrips in North America (Great Lakes Dragaway) and I am very accessible. I will be at the North American International Auto Show in a few weeks, look for some of my photos in the LA Times...

Aside from that, if you have followed the topic over on the Corral, I think if you look at my last reply to James, I think I was rather frank and honest in what I had to say, as I offered up a pretty obvious answer as to why this topic here exists. As for the other points... I think that most people do not have any idea how deep these issues go, but we could dive down to ear-popping depths if we wish to! What about media outlets? Newspapers, networks, all using the dollar to manipulate the public's perceptions? Come on man, where does it end?? There are a LOT of simple-minded people out there who truly believe "If I read it in the newspaper, it must be true"

We are constantly under "the forces of manipulation" from all aspects of most of our lives. It comes with the territory.

The gist of this whole thing, as I said on The Corral, is that when Jon and others said "STOP! We do not want this here", that request should have been honored, period. That is where the root is. It's not that complicated really.
However, it has grown into this big ta-doo and it's perhaps too late to fix it now. I guess time will tell. People make mistakes in business and in life, the key is to learn and grow from them, not to try to cover them up. Nobody reading this, Jon included, could possibly claim that they have never made an error in judgement or reason. It's how we face these situations that defines us.

I was once banned from The Corral.

Yup. Sure was. A little too outspoken, lacking in tact, lots of things.
Now I have been one of the admins for several years. Chris saw beyond my personality quirks and was able to get me to see that I had a lot of positive traits and skills that I should focus on.He didn't toss me in the trash bin.

I'm living proof that things can turn all the way around, they really can. I hope James and his business associates can look at this whole thing and learn from it.

Life. Such a fascinating journey....

Very well said.

What gets me is the vast amount of people out there that are just too stupid to see this stuff, even the blatant examples.

I used to watch Shadetree Mechanic years ago and it was a good show. As the show morphed over the years into Crank and Chrome and then Two Guys Garage it eventually became a half hour infomercial.

While waiting for Powerblock TV to come on this morning I happened to catch the latest "Two Guys Garage" and it totally amazed me. After a 5 minute setup (which was really a commercial for some local Tampa machine shop) the show then spent the next 20 minutes promoting ZMax. This was punctuated on several occasions by commercial breaks to advertise numerous other "automotive" products. The last 5 minutes was spent at the "parts counter" where they push even more junk on the public.

Now even the most naive person should be able to tell that show is nothing but an automotive version of the "Home Shopping Network" but if you visit their forums they are full of adoring fans who "JUST DON'T GET IT"!!!!!

A perfect example of stupidity at its finest. I don't know why they just can't be up front and admit the show is an infomercial but if you even mention the term they get p***ed. Go figure.

Another example is Good Morning America. On the surface this show is supposed to be an early morning "news" show with interviews and some entertainment to fill in the voids. What 99.9% of people don't understand is this show is nothing more than an advertisement for everything Disney. I've actually checked this out. They don't invite celebs on for interviews unless they're appearing in a movie that is in some way connected with one of Disney's studios or if they're on an ABC show. They don't invite authors on the show unless their book is being published by one of Disney's publishing companies. They don't have musical guests perform unless their under contract to one of Disney's record publishers, and the list goes on and on.

Its amazing to me that people don't see this, but it is happening and I'm sure these clandestine advertising methods are being used in a bunch of other situations as well. I guess truth in advertising is something of the past.

__________________
Centerline
HotRodsAndHemis.com

Centerline ,
It is posted on a different thread about a different subject , but I just said that very thing yesterday.
I don't know how to post a link to the "how to know if a shop is good or not " thread - but here is a piece of it :
"And as far as slogans/mottos being honest descriptions and ads being deceptive , I don't have to write up legal loopholes to post in the fine print of slogans.
almost every ad has fine print.
Fine print = hidden lies/half truths.

Truth in advertising is a long lost art."

So -as you said to pmeisel -
Very well said.

I am a hot rodder, vintage 1947, I have an opinion about hot rods. I have owned a so called rat rod and now a full fendered 60's vintage 1934 street/hot rod. Anyway that's who I am. I agree that the monkey **** that is all over the site is a bunch of crap. The hot rods they build are in my opinion ridiculous. The guys are juvenile as is evident with out any help from anyone else. Beer and burnout's - big deal. I wish I had never seen the lame video and even more so the forum you have inadvertently given them. I would not have known about this if it was not on the top of the home page. I wish you had just removed the add/video in the first place.

You can be RIGHT or you can be HAPPY. Think about that. The apology the producer gave was fine/good enough and it's not worth all this. Anyone with an IQ can see this kind of promotion a mile off. It's everywhere anyway. The campaign against hot rod shows on TV is a drag. I wish there was a real - real good hot rod show with tech stuff. Fact of life - there will not be one without a sponsor. Anger, resentment and vengeance I can see that this is consuming the forum. Let it go. If you want to show that hot rodders are a good bunch then go back to focusing on hot rods and not this petty ****. So some jerks got by the website and posted a shameless see through promo and looked like jerks doing it - so what - let it go for your health and the health of the forum. You have helped them get notoriety (I never heard of the antichrist before this and would have never taken him serious) and are creating the very style of a reality show (wait a minute) that.... they.... were.... trying.... to.... make.

Oh **** - my dumb *** - this is all a spoof right? To start a reality show? Old school hot rodders against the anti christ? Awww ****.