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Heads: GMP Vortec or Word Products S/R Torquer?

14K views 25 replies 7 participants last post by  Cousin_Joe 
#1 ·
I've read good things about both as upgrades to my stock 350. Anybody have experience or know some pro's or con's comparing the two? I'll need a new intake for the Vortec's, could I use a regular dual plane Performer on the Torquer's? This 350 will be a street setup when I'm done, so I'd like to assume all other things are equal. Thanks! :cool:
 
#2 ·
Cousin_Joe said:
I've read good things about both as upgrades to my stock 350. Anybody have experience or know some pro's or con's comparing the two? I'll need a new intake for the Vortec's, could I use a regular dual plane Performer on the Torquer's? This 350 will be a street setup when I'm done, so I'd like to assume all other things are equal. Thanks! :cool:
You can specify the intake bolt pattern with the Torquer so you can use your intake if it will cover the ports. One problem with these Vortec type heads is that the intake port is raised up and some intake manifolds will not cover the port, so call the vendor and make sure. Then proceed with careful installation to visually verify you have a good fit.

It's hard to speak in absolutes as every manufacturer of these parts, including GM, makes running changes to the product without changing the part number, so you can get a new head that won't fit an older manifold even though you've been assured by the manufacturer or hot rod shop that they do.

So before you start banging on things make sure you've got a fit, otherwise the seller may not take stuff back after you've modified it and then found out it doesn't fit through no fault of what you did.

Bogie
 
#4 ·
Cousin_Joe said:
I've read good things about both as upgrades to my stock 350. Anybody have experience or know some pro's or con's comparing the two? I'll need a new intake for the Vortec's, could I use a regular dual plane Performer on the Torquer's? This 350 will be a street setup when I'm done, so I'd like to assume all other things are equal. Thanks! :cool:
There is no question that you want to run the Vortec head if you want to make more power. Much better choice.
 
#6 ·
Go into gmperformanceparts.com There are a variety of Vortec heads but the standard replacement head is 12558060. The bare head is 12529093.

The other Vortec heads are part of the Bowtie series, bigger ports.
 
#7 ·
I was surfin' and ran across these new part numbers for Vortecs. These are different castings from the original 12558060 castings.

DESCRIPTION: HEAD: #25534421
Small port Vortec bowtie head assembly
Completely assembled, ready to bolt on
185 cc intake port
65 cc exhaust port
Uses Fel-pro #1470 exhaust gasket
Bare head P/N 25534351 available separately

DESCRIPTION: HEAD: #25534431
Large port Vortec bowtie head assembly
Completely assembled, ready to bolt-on
215 cc intake port
84 cc exhaust port
Uses Fel-pro #1470 exhaust gasket, may require minor trimming
Bare head P/N 255334371 available separately

Assembled using these part numbers:
25534407 intake valves
25534408 exhaust valves
12551483 valve springs
12552126 3/8" rocker studs
10212808 valve spring retainers
10212810 valve stem seals
12564852 valve locks.

The 12558060 off-the-shelf heads and the ones you'll find in boneyards under 062 or 906 casting numbers have 170 cc intake runners.
 
#8 ·
Sorry for the hijack!!
So is the 12558060 the best GM head, and who has the best price?
 
#11 ·
Yes they do, but as I read it you will need a whole bunch of other parts$$, so the total for a valve job is getting up there!!
 
#14 ·
.............. O K, how about an old guy on a budget with his first new truck 78 Chevy that needs a valve job!!!!
 
#15 ·
Cousin_Joe said:
So whats the best bet for a young guy on a budget? Maybe we could say the best setup for less than $1000 and best for over $1000? Everything should be a step up for my stock 350.
Did I miss what 350 this is and what is it in?

Knowing where you're starting from helps in the part selection. Add to that what the engine has to move (ie the vehicle), also transmission type and rear gears ratio, tire size if this is getting into a 4x4 with mudders to where you're getting a ways from normal tire diameters as that affects overall gear ratio, and how you intend to use the vehicle, plowing winter snow will be a different proposition than racing on PINKs.

Living in Michigan and commuting with this will net a different recommendation than living in San Diego because of the weather. Vortecs for example don't have an exhaust heat crossover, if you're commuting thru the Michigan winter this won't add to your happiness.

Bogie
 
#16 ·
oldbogie said:
Did I miss what 350 this is and what is it in?

Knowing where you're starting from helps in the part selection. Add to that what the engine has to move (ie the vehicle), also transmission type and rear gears ratio, tire size if this is getting into a 4x4 with mudders to where you're getting a ways from normal tire diameters as that affects overall gear ratio, and how you intend to use the vehicle, plowing winter snow will be a different proposition than racing on PINKs.

Living in Michigan and commuting with this will net a different recommendation than living in San Diego because of the weather. Vortecs for example don't have an exhaust heat crossover, if you're commuting thru the Michigan winter this won't add to your happiness.

Bogie
I'm looking at my summer daily driver. It's a '70 Impala (~4200 lbs). I currently have a PG trans, and 2.73's. I'm really considering replacing it with a built up 200-4R for the O/D benefits (I'd probably be changing the rear to something like 3.36-3.55 if I do go this way). We'll say 99% street, economy is a concern as I put on a ton of miles (and I've never been to a strip before). I'd just like to unleash a little of the 350's fury once in a while down the road, and have an engine to be proud of. :cool:
 
#20 · (Edited)
Cousin_Joe said:
I'm looking at my summer daily driver. It's a '70 Impala (~4200 lbs). I currently have a PG trans, and 2.73's. I'm really considering replacing it with a built up 200-4R for the O/D benefits (I'd probably be changing the rear to something like 3.36-3.55 if I do go this way). We'll say 99% street, economy is a concern as I put on a ton of miles (and I've never been to a strip before). I'd just like to unleash a little of the 350's fury once in a while down the road, and have an engine to be proud of. :cool:
I'll hit the transmission first, I think a 700R4/4L60 would be a better choice for a gear box for a couple reasons: First, it's built to react more torque than a 200R4 which is more appropriate for a 350 on one end and 4200 pounds of Impala on the other; Secondly, it has a deeper low gear than the 200R4 which will help launch the 2 plus tons on Impala while still giving a decent low speed over drive in 4th.

A lot of your dissatisfaction with the current 350 can be attributed to the 2.73 gears, the 2 speed Power Glide, and of course those 4200 pounds. Now I'm not saying not to mess with the motor, but! The "but" is that the gears and gear box and the weight have all been working against this motor for all these years so if I had a budget of 1000 bucks, I'd start under the car rather than under the hood.

Now that said, it does appear that you need a valve job and that got you thinking about heads. That's really appropriate given this engine been running with unleaded fuel for 25 years and was never designed to do so, therefore, it's likely a lot of exhaust seat regression has set in and restoration would include hard inserts which will add to the cost of rebuilding. So considering replacement heads with hard seats is reasonable as the cost of rebuilding will be close to that of replacement. Here the 060 original Vortec looks cost effective except it needs a unique intake bolt pattern so a couple 3 hundred bucks for the intake has to be figured in. The latter BowTie Vortecs 421 and 431 are attractive in that they'll accept your current intake but they are more costly than the 060 which might be a wash against the intake replacement cost. Here's where I like the new S/R Torquers as they have the nice Ricardo, heart/kidney shaped, chamber of the Vortec, you can pick your port size, in your case I try for 160-170 cc for bottom end torque improvement, the torque peak moves up the RPM curve as port size increases and the carb sees less signal which drives you to richer jets to compensate so gas mileage starts to decrease which is why I'd go with the smallest port volume I can get for this. The S/Rs can be had with your choice of intake bolt pattern, spark plug type gasket of bevel seal, spark plug angle or straight mounting, drilled for perimeter or center bolt covers, stuff like that. So against the GM parts you've got more configuration and installation flexibility, plus they're SMOG certified which the Vortecs are not as a replacement head. I'd go with the 43610-1 for a 170 cc port, 1.94/1.55 valves, 67 cc chamber to run the compression up a tad, 86 and older intake bolt pattern, straight plug. I have to say that I like the GM Vortec spark plug location and the deck that interferes with the short side flow into the exhaust valve a bit better than the S/R chamber, but that's getting into nit picking.

For the GM Vortec either the 060 or 421 would provide the smaller port size I think apporpiate for your application. The 060 will require a unique intake unless you feel capable or can get a qualified person to redrill/retap the heads for the older bolt pattern. The 421 will most likely accept your current intake, but visually check to make sure before starting the engine.

If you use the GM Vortec, the lack of exhaust heat under the intake will be a problem for you till the engine gets good an warm. Two ways to go at this are: First, to restore the snorkel heat of the original air cleaner; Second, to clean connect into the heat cross over of the intake with NTP fittings to plumb it into the heater/bypass circuit so coolant will flow thru here and warm the intake. These two things will eliminate cool/moist day icing under the throttle plates, speed engine warm up, and reduce low and cruise speed cylinder to cylinder mixture distribution problems making the engine run smoother and deliver better fuel mileage.

The down side to putting either a top end rebuild or a new set of heads on an old engine is that the resorted compression starts pulling oil around the old rings, so don't be surprised if this doesn't beget a bottom end rebuild as well. But like I said earlier, I'd start with the rear gears at least 3.08s then the tranny in that order.

Bogie
 
#22 ·
I would go for the RHS Vortec heads, excellant price, Excellant product.
They weight considerably more than stock vortecs, and the decks are meatier. They are said to flow 5% better than stock vortecs, but that`s nothing to brag on. The guides are already clearenced for higher lifts. You can get them bare or assembled. Since I had the parts needed when I ordered mine I went the bare pair route. These heads are Pro Topline heads from down under or NZ, they were bought out by RHS when Topline hit hard times. RHS has been around a long time and the same guy owns both RHS and Comp Cams.
 
#23 ·
#24 · (Edited)
The pro comp line is really china heads, they just claim to be made down under. I don`t think the Aussie`s who are good folks would push junk on us. I think the chinese who are pushing this junk got wise really quickly that we would see the price on these heads and see the product and we would jump on it, as long as it wasn`t made in china. They learned quickly some of us didn`t like the idea of chinese hot rod parts because the vast majority of it`s junk. So they claim it`s made down under and it`s really not. Even so I`m ticked off at Chevy High Performance for pushing the junk china made professional products intakes, I don`t care how good they say they are it`s still Junk with a capital J and you won`t see any of it on any car I throw together. PP vortec intake, looked like the ports had been ground with a die grinder with a dull carbide cutter, the "aluminum" was several different colors which indicated to me it was just thrown in the pot metal, if it melted and casted they used it. It had "made in china" stamped on it in three places, and worst of all, the water port flange on the intake was not wide enough, so the intake gasket overhanged it by 1/4 leaving a nice water leak on all 4 corners. I did this build some years ago and when he brought me that intake I said I would bolt it on because he`s paying for it, but it went against my better judgement. after 3 pairs of gaskets that he kept insisting would seal but wouldn`t, I told him to get a edelbrock vortec intake, he did and it sealed with ease. He learned quickly what saving a few bucks can do, he bought 4 pairs of gaskets total, and another intake, which means he spent double trying to save a few dollars. You get what you pay for.
 
#25 · (Edited)
DoubleVision said:
He learned quickly what saving a few bucks can do, he bought 4 pairs of gaskets total, and another intake, which means he spent double trying to save a few dollars. You get what you pay for.
thanks doublevision,

i stand corrected,thanks for the down low info on procomp :thumbup:

i know all to well about that. my lesson with my 383 was very expensive. :spank:
 
#26 ·
I was pretty sure I'd want to stay away from anything "made in china" in putting together my engine. The price catches the eye, but I knew better after only reading a little on the pro-comp / pp stuff. I figured I wouldn't be the only one staying away from cutting corners that bad. ;)
 
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