HEI Module w/points - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Electrical
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2006, 06:28 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Antonio Tx
Age: 67
Posts: 112
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
HEI Module w/points

Does anyone know how to wire up a GM HEI module to set of points? I know the B and C go to the coil, and W and G go to the mag pick up. I'm going to use the module connected to a Ford Dist, and need to know where the W and G will hook up.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2006, 07:33 PM
docvette's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Rebuild an alternator Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lafayette, california
Age: 62
Posts: 7,362
Wiki Edits: 12

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts
Doc here,

Here is a site that explains how to do it..

HEI Module

It refers to Ford, Mazda, etc.. 4 and 6 Cylinder engines , but I believe the diagram is the same for an 8..

At any rate there is enough there for you to figure out the rest of the module..

Don't forget to heat sink that puppy Good!

Let us know how it works!

Doc
__________________
Aftermarket Solutions
Electronic & Electrical
Innovations
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2006, 12:01 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Antonio Tx
Age: 67
Posts: 112
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Doc, That set up is to replace the module in an MX-3 with an HEI module. What I want is to use is a point type dist with an HEI module. This way the heavy amps will go through the module, and the points will be used as the trigger with only minimal voltage through it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2006, 12:13 AM
docvette's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Rebuild an alternator Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lafayette, california
Age: 62
Posts: 7,362
Wiki Edits: 12

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts
Doc here,

Geeze..Coulda Sworn I saw a points setup in there..Guess that what happens when the eyes grow old..

Anyway, W should go to a hard ground, and G to the trigger device..(points) According to all the data on it.

Doc
__________________
Aftermarket Solutions
Electronic & Electrical
Innovations
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2006, 06:56 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lakeland FL
Age: 65
Posts: 4,110
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
lakota,

I have never tried your idea, HEI and points.....I'm wondering if it can work? You are going to have both rpm variable V and rpm variable (?) dwell at the same time.????

normal points wiring uses 3ohms of resistance to knock down the V with a constant 28* dwell,
6-9V at idle to roughly 12V at 3,000rpms+ (because the coil doesn't have full V recharge time as rpms increase),
plugs gapped at .032?, normal points spark is only 10,000Vmax approx

the "magic" in a "smart" HEI module and ss ignition is that it varys the spark "dwell" with rpm (not V), roughly 15* to 50* for the strongest possible spark at idle and longer duration/ less total V driving,
which with a ss ign spark gap of .045? is 18,000Vmax approx

points are 28* dwell, the HEI is going to reduce that to roughly 15* with only 6V available at idle...weak spark if any
feed 12V to the points with HEI 15*dwell??? I'd carry spare points in the glove box...that's a wicked arc
at higher rpm, the HEI won't match the fixed mechanical 28*?
what's the points condensor/capacitor going to do?
points power output is very weak compared to ss ign so plug gap can't be .045/18kV?

really am curious to know the results, do post how it turns out

Last edited by red65mustang; 05-11-2006 at 07:10 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2006, 03:41 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Antonio Tx
Age: 67
Posts: 112
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Red, I had to read your reply a dozen times. Each fact sent me into deep thought about the parameters of the HEI module. You're right on every aspect. From what I can tell the 4 lead HEI is nothing more than a voltage/amperage amplifier. The dwell will still be handled by the points, and the dist still use the vacuum advance. My idea was to use the points in the ground circuit, as an on/off switch for the HEI, with full 12 volts to the HEI.

I wanted to use the Ford TFI, but there's no way to control the dwell or advance without the computer box. The box won't function properly without the rest of the sensor crap. If you use the TFI without the computer box, you can't start it without first killing the votage until you get it cranking fast enough (it fires early). I thought about the TFI with the HEI module, but I'd still need vacuum advance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2006, 04:49 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lakeland FL
Age: 65
Posts: 4,110
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
lakota,
much simpler solution is a $60 Pertronix unit and 30 minutes to install it....

pitch the points and condensor, screw down the pertronix in their place....
eliminate the resistance wire (or blast resistor) to the coil....
increase the plug gap from .032 to .036....for roughly 15kV spark
hook the red pertronix wire to 12V ign "on" source...
hook the black wire to coil neg.....

your done

nervous Nellie about failure on the road, just keep the points/condensor/screwdriver in the car.....

pertronix is 28* fixed dwell, same as (new!) points

plan "B" is you can buy a true HEI Ford converted dist for $$$...what you will principally gain over the pertronix is a really nice square signal, the pertronix is a fast ramp to peak
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2006, 05:18 PM
docvette's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Rebuild an alternator Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lafayette, california
Age: 62
Posts: 7,362
Wiki Edits: 12

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts
Doc here,

OK, in the standard non~EST HEI module , It's internal operation is a Solid State High Speed Switching AMP, Which triggers a High Current brick Amp to control the Voltage to the coil..Separate semi~Isolated items..

As far as the points are concerned , Your controlling a small voltage / current Transistor, not a Secondary voltage..No resistance (for points) is required...

you are not going to have high tension Arcing at the points at all (they'll last forever..) The High Current / Voltage brick side of the module is what is doing the work..you can trigger the module with a toggle switch to ground for that matter.. and it will fire the coil.

A Non EST Module will not Control any dwell or advance retard function..you need an EST module for that..(6 Wire module)

RED:

Quote:
6-9V at idle to roughly 12V at 3,000rpms+ (because the coil doesn't have full V recharge time as rpms increase),
I tried this test on 5 Corvettes over the past two weeks to see If I wasn't missing something..

Parameters of the tests were, All different types of Ignition systems, From HEI to points dependent, To CDI..

The Test equipment was a D'arsonal Type of meter, AND a Digital timebase DVOM, Readings taken at the Coil Plus terminal, RPMS were :, IDLE, 2000 RPM, 3000 RPM, 4000 RPM, and 4500 RPM..

I got the Following results..ON ALL:

Idle=13.98 Volts
2000 RPM=14.4 Volts
3000 RPM=14.4 volts
4000 RPM=14.4 Volts
4500 RPM=14.4 Volts

Can you Explain this? I invite you to try it on a test vehicle and see if you get the same readings..maybe I'm missing something here??..

Anyway, As Far as the Advance (mechanical as well as Vacuum) it will not change from the stock point system.only the mode of trigger changes.

You do not need to "Build, buffer and store" anything at the points..you do however need it between the module and the Coil..All you would be doing is turning on and off a transistor with points that is capable of speeds much higher than the mechanical dizzy will ever see..(like 400 MHZ..)

I'm not a Ford guy at all, and not done a ton of Dura Sparks, So I'm not too sure what your working with there..but it would seem easier to go with like an MSD optical sensor and module to fit your Dizzy and interface to your Dura Spark..Or for that matter an MSD brain box..

Doc
__________________
Aftermarket Solutions
Electronic & Electrical
Innovations
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2006, 09:47 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Antonio Tx
Age: 67
Posts: 112
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You guys came up with some good facts. Ok, ditch the idea of the HEI with points, and install the Pertronix gizmo. The wife wasn't too thrilled with putting a GM part in her Ford. She's still looking around for a cheap "Girlie Motor" (289/302) to replace her 300 6 banger. That's why I was holding off on the Pertronix, and looking for a quick-fix. I was fed up with buying points every month.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2006, 05:18 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lakeland FL
Age: 65
Posts: 4,110
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
lakota and doc,
using the points for just on/off switching, you still will be adjusting the gap every 3,000 miles or so to keep the dwell at 28* as the cam contact pad on the points wears down (dwell goes up), and replacing them every 10,000? miles or so when the open/close "spring" action weakens (will be hotter under the cap with HEI spark)

lakota, fair chance you were replacing points often due to wrong (generic won't work) condensor,
and/or wrong coil resistance (.6 won't work) and/or no ign wire ballast resistance

Plan "C", You wanted a TFI type hall sensor kit, Crane Cams $65, not sure if there is one for your dist, it does have variable dwell like the HEI, a little more work to install (swap plates) see attached pic'
I prefer the pertronix fixed dwell, would rather curve the centrifugal and vacuum advance for best timing and Hg, with a constant spark duration
You mentioned this is "Mama's ride" so study both ?


doc,
your not seeing the 6-9 volts testing points due to only a .6ohm coil?

points coil is typically 1.8ohm and typically a 1.5ohm ballast or resistor wire,
primary volts to a points system is limited to about 250V 4.5amp

a points car is a very old car with old switches and harnesses and connects and coil etc so that's part of why I say "roughly" 12V at the coil 2500+rpm...

13.98 at 500 idle=alt has kicked in on your test car?
11.80 at 500 idle= batt only (correct!) in a points car minus what ever other loads are turned on=6-9V (with the 1.8ohm coil and 1.5ohm ballast resister)

next part is (?) interpolation from testing a single 1.5ohm Chrysler resistor on my (pertronix) car*,
points coils varied from (?) 1.2 ohm to 2.0 ohm so I rounded off the V" % drop
13.4V* at 2500rpm= 11.7V (10% drop after the resistor, before the coil on my car)
14.4 at 2500 on your test car would be 12.96 (10% drop...call it 13V)
13V at 2500 with a 1.8 ohm coil (another 10% drop)= "roughly 12V at the coil at 2500 rpm

*HEI can be 400-500V on the primary, pertronix doesn't say what the max primary can be or what their 40kv "flame thrower" coil resistance is.....grrrrr
I'm using a .6ohm Jacobs coil with 13.4V max to keep the primary at a safer level.....8 years old and still ticking and abused bad several times

remember ignition man who "killed a barrel full of pertronix"....(my $.02) a fair to good probable reason is he ran full 14.4V to a .5ohm coil and about a .050 plug gap....pertronix "ain't" a 18000V HEI....it's a 15,000V bullet proof "points and condensor" solution

lakota, which ever ss ign, do retune the timing....roughly 7amp versus 4amp ign=lots of hp's to find for free on a Sunday afternoon
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	crane varible dwell.jpg
Views:	103
Size:	9.4 KB
ID:	12127  

Last edited by red65mustang; 05-12-2006 at 07:42 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2006, 01:25 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Antonio Tx
Age: 67
Posts: 112
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
More good information. FYI...It's been cut and pasted to my documents for future reference. This is just another reason that I've turned away from Ford and gone to GM...SIMPLICITY. With a Ford, if you want a one wire altenator, gotta go with GM. If you want a solid state dizzy, gotta go with aftermarket. If you want to hot rod or chrome it, gotta go searching auto stores, websites, or E-Bay. GM on the other hand is 90% interchangeable through the years. But that's just my rant.

I found out why I'm replacing the points so often. My wife's 20 yr old son has been going out to her truck at night and listening to BOOM-BOOM-BOOM music on her radio. He argues that there is no difference between "Accessory" and "On" in a 70 Ford. He says that I'm changing points because I'm a lousy mechanic, and the speakers buzz and distort because I'm cheap and only paid $69 a pair for her speakers. I'm beginning to understand why animals devour their young.

He still uses the truck to go to work. So, the points were replaced by him with me talking him through it, (I pretended that the arthritus in my fingers flaired up), and there's a spare set in the glove box. The speakers will continue to buzz and distort. He's going to learn this valuable lesson the hard way!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2006, 03:23 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lakeland FL
Age: 65
Posts: 4,110
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
lakota.....I'd rewire your son and/or the ign switch "acc" !

if the ign is on in acc key position the pertronix and coil won't be happy either

are you sure the switch is wired correct or not worn out?

found more info....
for 6 and 8cylinder motors....8.5 amp is recommended max, so their coil must be a 1.5 ohm 12V/1.5ohm = 8amp
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2006, 03:32 PM
docvette's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Rebuild an alternator Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lafayette, california
Age: 62
Posts: 7,362
Wiki Edits: 12

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts
Doc here,

One of the reasons I have limited Experience on Dura Spark Systems..(besides Corvette never had them.. ) GM is much easier to work on..Both HEI and OS Point systems..Most of the rest of the parts are simple to acquire..and If not at the local speed shop..it's because the shelf is empty..not because they don't stock it..

My Passion reverts to Ford when it tin, 1940 and under..Then My preference lays with Ford.

Here is a little Circuit that will stop the Wife's son from burning up points..(and maybe he'll learn what burns them up..along with some $$ from his pocket)

Locate the field wire from the Alternator, Get a single pole single throw relay from radio shack..(about $5 bucks)

Wire the relay thusly..
  • Normally open contact :to the existing fuse for the radio from the fuse box.
  • Center wiper Contact : To the Stereo power wire
  • The Coil Power Contact (either terminal): Parallel to the Alternator field wire.
  • The other Coil Contact To hard Ground.

In this configuration, The Stereo will ONLY play if the Engine is Actually RUNNING, and the alternator has output..not just sitting with the key "On"..

Don't let him know what you have done. And tell him he is welcome to listen to it all night long...So long as HE Pays for the idled out Fuel ( here it's $3.79 a Gallon) That won't last long..but your points WILL...

As far as the Speakers, Were it I, I would tell him.."I'd Install Better ones ... But I needed to save up for a stock of Points and Coils.." Since your working..I'll halve it with you..YOU buy the speakers...I WILL install them..That'll End the B and Moan Department..

Doc
__________________
Aftermarket Solutions
Electronic & Electrical
Innovations
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Electrical posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which HEI module for my Ford probe GT penekusu Introduce Yourself 2 01-24-2006 09:42 PM
MSD Digital HEI Module red_rider52 Electrical 3 01-23-2006 09:50 PM
Anybody running an MSD HEI module? baddbob Engine 10 07-15-2005 09:56 AM
Quick question on MSD HEI module Jmark Engine 1 06-17-2005 02:43 PM
HEI Module horvath Engine 8 09-09-2003 05:57 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.