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Old 09-17-2011, 05:06 PM
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Help 383-389 Vortec Motor Build this winter

In the process of planning on a 389 SBC build. I'd like to hear what the possible output of the motor will be (horsepower and torque wise). I'd also like to hear your opinions and suggestions on parts selection... Here's what I got...

ONLY parts I have thus far is a Block which is a machined Vortec 350 Bored 4.060". It was a fully machined block ready for rebuild from a crate engine maker that went under.
I am planning but getting really close to pull the trigger on bottom and top ends.

This will be a street car 67 Impala TH400, tall rear gear. Plan on building for cruiser nice kick ***** street cruiser not drag race bruiser. This is a low budget build. Please keep that in mind. not planning to turn past 6000RPM. So peak power at 5400-5700RPM max is fine
Looking for heads so far Patriot Performance offered me a super deal on the top end, heads, edelbrock intake Howards Hyd roller cam OE roller lifters, gasket match intake all top end gaskets and provide all gaskets and hardware.
here is current plan:
Car
-67 Chevy Impala assume 4000+#
-TH400 auto with stock converter will change to match cam if needed
-3.07 rear tall gears stock tires right now figure 2000-2500 cruise RPM
The plan
-Want street car 80% hwy cruising 55-75mph, car shows may go on 200-300 mile cruises. Run on Pump gas 87-92 availiable. figure good low to mid torque cam to get big heavy car moving. On a side note I may take it to strip once a year for muscle car days. may change rear and tranny in time. This is only for fun cruising NOT drag car.
-We are at 1000Ft altitude if that makes a difference.
Block
-'96-'97 SBC 350 block OE Hyd Roller 1 pc rear seal
-4.060" bore
-3.75" stroke
-trying to shoot for 0.038-0.45 quench
-10.1-10.35:1 CR
-most likely ext balance (on budget)
-Looking at Skip White's rotating assembly Scat 9000 Crank, PC rods, and Probe -12cc dish pistons. Comes balanced with rings, damper and flex plate. I really like the pistons and rods not sosure on the rods.
ebay link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-C...item519a9a08aa

Heads
Patriot Performance 190cc AL heads
Technical Specs:
Combustion Chamber: 64cc
Intake Runner: 190cc
Exhaust Runner: 62cc
Intake Valve: 2.02"
Exhaust Valve: 1.60"
Max. Valve Spring Lift: 0.575"
Spring Pressure Closed: 115 lbs. @ 1.800"
Spring Pressure Open: 310 lbs. @ 1.225"
Flow according to PP
I Flow
.100 66
.200 131
.300 195
.400 232
.500 252
.550 257
.600 260
E Flow
.100 54
.200 111
.300 155
.400 179
.500 192
.550 197
.600 199
(these # were provided by Patriot Performance on there new design they claim they have not updated there web page yet with new data)
https://www.patriot-performance.com/...&cat=40&page=1

-Intake Edelbrock #2601 dual plane Performer airgap
-Original Carb Quadra jet will be rebuilt
-Cam will be a Howards I have to provide spec to Patriot if I go that route. Howards reccomends : 180325-10
225i 233e @ 0.050"
278i 286e seat to seat
.525"i .530"e lift. with 1.5" rockers

Here is a link to all HOWARDS SBC OE roller cams IF YOU SEE ONE THAT IS BETTER FIT LMK.
http://www.howardscams.com/index.php...ategory_id=372
-Lifters Howards OE Hyd roller

Here are a couple a questions:
1) What is you opinion will this be a good match up for the 67 Impala ?
2) The Vortec Bock is setup for OE hyd roller lifters is still better to run retorfit Hyd roller lifers ? can is even be done ? There is a $100 adder to go Retro Hyd roller lifters.
3) If I go kit route have not measured deck yet but will GM head gasket work with 4.060" bore GM 0.028 head gasket and will gasket work with AL heads ?
4) Looking at what Howards has to offer any you think would work better ?
5) For best bang for buck better deals on top end ?
6) Please feel free to give advice please control the mud slingin on heads.
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Old 09-18-2011, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impala5967
-Lifters Howards OE Hyd roller

Here are a couple a questions:
1) What is you opinion will this be a good match up for the 67 Impala ?
2) The Vortec Bock is setup for OE hyd roller lifters is still better to run retorfit Hyd roller lifers ? can is even be done ? There is a $100 adder to go Retro Hyd roller lifters.
3) If I go kit route have not measured deck yet but will GM head gasket work with 4.060" bore GM 0.028 head gasket and will gasket work with AL heads ?
4) Looking at what Howards has to offer any you think would work better ?
5) For best bang for buck better deals on top end ?
6) Please feel free to give advice please control the mud slingin on heads.
Sounds like a nice build & should work well.

1) Yes
2) The OEM Rollers will work fine with that size Cam + cheaper than Retros.
3) They say for a 4.00" Bore, not sure if they'll work with .060" over Cyl. There are other Gaskets that will work in .015" to .025" thicknesses.
4) I would contact Howards with all your Specs & see what they suggest.
5) Just shop around. http://www.competitionproducts.com/ has good deals.

6) Other Tips/Ideas:
Go with an Edelbrock 7104 Performer RPM Intake, not the AirGap.
I'd use Scat's I-Beam 7/16" Cap Screw Rods. These are Stroker clearanced.
72cc Heads with Flat Top 4VR 6cc-7cc Pistons will give about the same compression ratio as the 64cc Heads & 12cc Dish Pistons, just incase you find other deals on Heads, Pistons etc..
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Old 09-18-2011, 01:34 PM
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i agree with the previous post, i think i would stay away from the PC rods (not to start an argument ) and i think that your compression is a bit high for a simple street cruiser that will likely be run on regular pump gas (also not to start and argument )

here is a decent kit, that i would go for over the skip white kit, it does have an Eagle crank and some have some things to say about them but i believe their problems were in the 90's and since then they have improved the quality of their cranks dramatically. i would have no reservations to turn this assembly upwards of 6500rpm.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-B13004L03053/

the 18cc dished piston is Kieth Black D dished, so it keeps the good flat quench pad for a better burn and would put your compression in the 9.6:1 range which would easily be ran on 87 octane all day long. you will need to upgrade your stall with a mid 220-230 @ 050 cam to around a 2500-2800 stall (especially with the heavy impala) and i would seriously look into geting a set of 3.42-3.73's since this in being run in a full size car. matched with a 28" tire you would still run around 2500rpm at 60 mph (3.42 would be perfect).and for head gaskets, Victor Reinz makes a real nice .026" gasket that works perfect with the 9.025 standard deck height and the 9.008 rotating assembly height when using the 1.433" compression height KB 18cc pistons that i mention, all this will give you a .043" quench which is pretty much perfect
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:46 AM
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Also doing more research to rebuild my Q-jet will cost as much as getting a new Carb. Sounds like it will be more advantaguos to go with the Edelbrock #7501. Talked Edelbrock twice and got two different carb opinions they both said to use #7501

First guy thought the Edelbrock #1806 650CFM AVS Thunder carb was the way to go and use #7501 intake.

Second guy thought the Edelbrock #1813 800 CFM AVS Thunder carb is the way to go and use the #7501 intake.



For max bottom end they thought the #2601 and Q-jet would work well but suffer up top a lot especially it being a 389 with the heads and cam chioce.

SO I think a new carb is in order and I never had an Edelbrock never heard anything bad about them accept you will always make more power with a Holley. I see a 750 Performer rebuilt can be very reasonable but lacks the features of the AVS with adjustable secondaries. I am leaning toward the Edelbrock #1806 650 AVS unless can be convinced otherwise. my other option is to just go Holley 750 double pumper or Holley old list #3310 vac secondary. I seen an Edelbrock 750 Performer on sale as Jegs right now too. Any opinions out there please share.



Thanks for all the great input thus far.
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:23 PM
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Go with the 3310 and Non-AirGap 7101. Or if you want more flash, 770 Avenger.
AirGaps don't like cool weather, can be a nigthmare & it gets "Cold" where you live.
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Old 09-20-2011, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impala5967
-67 Chevy Impala assume 4000+#
-TH400 auto with stock converter will change to match cam if needed
-3.07 rear tall gears stock tires right now figure 2000-2500 cruise RPM
The plan
-Want street car 80% hwy cruising 55-75mph, car shows may go on 200-300 mile cruises. Run on Pump gas 87-92 availiable. figure good low to mid torque cam to get big heavy car moving. On a side note I may take it to strip once a year for muscle car days. may change rear and tranny in time. This is only for fun cruising NOT drag car.
-We are at 1000Ft altitude if that makes a difference.
What you have described here is a motor that should be built at 8.75:1 to 9.25:1 static compression ratio with a short cam to match. In other words, there is little difference between what you want and going down to the Chevrolet dealer in 1967 and buying the same car and motor off the showroom floor. It would have been about 9.00:1 with a short cam and good throttle response, while providing good fuel economy at cruise.

Give the motor a chance to breathe with a 14" x 4" air filter, Edelbrock 18059 reconditioned 650 manual choke carb, 7101 RPM intake, 1 3/4" primary tube size long tube headers, X or H pipe right after the collectors, free-flowing mufflers of your choice and pipes to the rear bumper. Mount a micro-switch at the choke linkage on the carb and run keyed juice off the run side of the ignition switch, through a small indicator light mounted on the dash to show you when the choke is pulled on. You could get fancy if you wish, and mount a flasher in the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impala5967
Block
-'96-'97 SBC 350 block OE Hyd Roller 1 pc rear seal
-4.060" bore
-3.75" stroke
-trying to shoot for 0.038-0.45 quench
-10.1-10.35:1 CR
-most likely ext balance (on budget)
-Looking at Skip White's rotating assembly Scat 9000 Crank, PC rods, and Probe -12cc dish pistons. Comes balanced with rings, damper and flex plate. I really like the pistons and rods not sosure on the rods.
ebay link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-C...item519a9a08aa
Great block to begin with. Some of them out of heavier trucks and vans had 4-bolt main caps from the factory.
I like the Scat cast steel crank and Scat forged steel rods. They are clearanced at the factory for cam lobe clearance with the long crank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impala5967
Heads
Patriot Performance 190cc AL heads
Technical Specs:
Combustion Chamber: 64cc
Intake Runner: 190cc
Exhaust Runner: 62cc
Intake Valve: 2.02"
Exhaust Valve: 1.60"
Max. Valve Spring Lift: 0.575"
Spring Pressure Closed: 115 lbs. @ 1.800"
Spring Pressure Open: 310 lbs. @ 1.225"
Flow according to PP
I Flow
.100 66
.200 131
.300 195
.400 232
.500 252
.550 257
.600 260
E Flow
.100 54
.200 111
.300 155
.400 179
.500 192
.550 197
.600 199
(these # were provided by Patriot Performance on there new design they claim they have not updated there web page yet with new data)
https://www.patriot-performance.com/...&cat=40&page=1
In my opinion, you don't need double-throwdown, trick of the month cylinder heads for an 80% cruiser. 170-180 on the intake runners would be plenty. Also, you want the largest combustion chamber that you can bolt onto the motor. 72/74 at a minimum and 76 preferred. A 72cc chamber with an 18cc piston crown such as the KB135-060 will produce 9.04:1 SCR. A 76cc chamber with a 12cc piston crown such as the KB197-060 will produce 9.20:1 SCR. These figures assume a piston with a 1.433" compression height and zero deck, using the default Fel-Pro 1003 to minimize brinelling of the heads. Use a piston that has a generous squish pad, such as the D-cup Keith Black piston so that you get the maximum benefit from squish being jetted across the chamber. This approach will allow you to run the crummiest pump gas you come across. With the changes I see coming, we may not have even 87 octane fuel in the future. Build accordingly and err on the short side is my best advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impala5967
-Intake Edelbrock #2601 dual plane Performer airgap
-Original Carb Quadra jet will be rebuilt
-Cam will be a Howards I have to provide spec to Patriot if I go that route. Howards reccomends : 180325-10
225i 233e @ 0.050"
278i 286e seat to seat
.525"i .530"e lift. with 1.5" rockers
You have changed to the Edelbrock RPM and I think that is the optimum choice. The cam you will want to use has an intake duration @0.050" of somewhere around 204 to 208. This will work well with the lower SCR and tall gear. There is a limit to the lift you can use with the OEM roller rockers. Mark (Cobalt) has posted the limit, but I didn't write it down. I think it was somewhere around 0.350"/0.355" lift at the lobe. Any more than that could allow the tappet body to fall below the dog bone because of the smaller base circle used in aftermarket cams. You would not like the results. Here is the type of cam I would install in your motor if I were tasked with building it....
CompCams extreme 4x4 grind.....I'd use the OEM lifters.....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-08-409-8/
Here's the timing card, use the springs listed here (buy your heads bare and assemble them with CompCams components that will work with the cam). This cam will support a stock converter. If you wanted a little more driveability, you could use the first looser converter over stock (1800-2000 stall).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impala5967
Here are a couple a questions:
1) What is you opinion will this be a good match up for the 67 Impala ?
2) The Vortec Bock is setup for OE hyd roller lifters is still better to run retorfit Hyd roller lifers ? can is even be done ? There is a $100 adder to go Retro Hyd roller lifters.
3) If I go kit route have not measured deck yet but will GM head gasket work with 4.060" bore GM 0.028 head gasket and will gasket work with AL heads ?
4) Looking at what Howards has to offer any you think would work better ?
5) For best bang for buck better deals on top end ?
6) Please feel free to give advice please control the mud slingin on heads.
1. I feel that my suggestions would result in the best combination to achieve your goals.
2. Use OEM hydraulic rollers. With this short lift, they'll work great.
3. No. Aluminum heads require a pre-flattened wire in the fire ring to prevent brinelling of the aluminum. Always use the head gasket recommended by the head mfg. If they have no recommendation, use the Fel-Pro 1003 as a default gasket.
4. No.
5. No, tailor everything to the purpose of the build.
6. Buy the heads bare and thoroughly inspect and measure everything. Especially, pour the chambers to find the actual cc's in each one.

Don't bother with gasket matching unless you're building a max effort racemotor where you might pick up a couple horsepower if the matching is done correctly. If done incorrectly and you end up with a runner that looks like an Anaconda that swallowed a hog, then the mixture will slow down at that point and fuel will fall out of suspension, creating lean and rich mixtures alternatively and presenting you with a tuning nightmare.

Last edited by techinspector1; 09-20-2011 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 09-20-2011, 03:06 PM
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Its not that cold : ) Years ago I had a Holley 3310 never ran it sold it wish I kept it.
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