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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2007, 03:22 PM
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Olds: your cr with a flat top piston in a O decked 406 and a 64cc head will be
11.37:1. Not going to work. not even close.

Your not the first guy to make this mistake or try to monkey a way around it.
Give it up!!!
Change the frickin pistons!!!!. Some one will buy your flat top 400 pistons.

This motor is all done by 5800rpm. it will never need more than 6000rpm.
Don;t need big valve springs or big valve spring pockets or a roller rocker.
This is all I did to my vortecs other than some general hand porting.
I use the stock spring pocket diameter. The inner spring seat diameter was reduced just a tad. The valve guide boss was simply machined shorter using a standard valve guide boss machine cutter to fit a common .530" teflon seal and increase the valve lift limit of a OEM vortec head. (cut .200" shorter with the .530" cutter and you're all done. Milling the stud bosses flat and tapping for screw in studs and guide plates is a simple standard machining job. I pay no more than $200 for this combined work. Buy your own screwin studs and guide plates and install yourself.
A roller rocker is over kill for this 5800 rpm motor. A good Crane stamped steel rocker with a roller tip is all I run on mine. A comp magnum rocker is fine.
You can even get the Comp magnums as a "self guided tip" that eliminates the need for guide plates. You can easily drill and pin the stock rocker arms studs, yourself.

use a Lunati 73943 or Isky 235D stock diameter spring. Or with all the $$$ I just saved ya burp that wallet for some nice stock diameter Comp beehive springs and retainers.
Strip down your heads at home before ya take them in.
If your machinist won;t budge on the price of getting just what really needs to be done and no more, (clean and assemble the heads your self) buy the tooling yourself and do it at home with an electric drill yourself. I do.
You'll save a ton of money by doing all the simple dirty stuff yourself and just paying your machinst for actual machine work. If you make him clean and assemble everything for you he has to charge you.

The Professional Products "Crosswind" manifold for Vortecs $$$costs less$$$ and works just as well if not better. I've used both.
This is not that hard.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2007, 04:28 PM
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Okay...Okay...I see it ain't gonna work, but I just liked those heads you referred me to, but I see I can't use them "Dang". so what do you think about the Dart Iron Eagle Platinum w/215 intake runner and 72cc w/either the XE294 cam and VIC JR intake.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2007, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olds86
Okay...Okay...I see it ain't gonna work, but I just liked those heads you referred me to, but I see I can't use them "Dang". so what do you think about the Dart Iron Eagle Platinum w/215 intake runner and 72cc w/either the XE294 cam and VIC JR intake.
just peachy (the combination is fine) but you're spending $1100 to cure a $300 problem.
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Old 09-27-2007, 04:52 PM
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Well I was just weighing my options, I really do appreciate your info the engine will probably be built using the first set of specs you gave me anyway, but I wanted to get and learn as much as I possibly could. One last question does the price of a hydraulic roller cam outweigh the benefits or do you see a hydraulic doing the job just fine?
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:07 PM
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If you decide to go that route I would buy this pn10621122P
head. Ii would strip them down and inspect them. I would do simple port clean up. The ports are plenty big Just smooth em. The valve guide bosses can be streamlined
a bit more. Especialy the exhaust side. The short side radius (last angle of the valve job needs to be smoothed and blended a little) Some times there is a small machine step where the exhaust seat insert is. Needs blending into the exhaust bowl. No need to get carried away Just a general common sense cleanup. Get some old valves to protect the valve seats and clean up the combustion chamber roughness,sharp edges and polish it.
That should get you a finished 74-75 cc chamber. 92 octane ready to rock finished cr of 10.22:1. it 'll boogie.
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:21 PM
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A hyd roller cam is good for around 20-30hp and a bit of torque over a simular flat tappet hyd cam.
Sometimes (often) a lot less. With the heavy retrofit hyd lifter they have a rpm limit of around 6200rpm. Some people stretch that using a rev kit and lots of spring pressure. In reality a that point its time for a solid lifter roller cam of you want power for $$$'s spent.

I would custom order the XE294H on 107LSA direct from comp cams and use 1.6 rockers before going to a expensive hyd roller.
That will pay off (bang for the buck)

Hyd rollers are very good for milder moderate motors up to 6000rpm.
if you have a roller block and can use the OEM style lifter its not too bad.

In your case its not going to pay off for ya. If you want more power than this burp the wallet for some AFR heads first before a Hyd retro roller cam.
And/or go solid street roller. I like Crane power max mechanical street rollers.

Its easy to get into excessive $$$'s here. Your origional plans of building a street/strip motor around a 406 with vortec heads is very good. You'll like it a lot. Just need to swap out the pistons to correct the compression ratio and it good to go. Are your vortec heads something you dragged out of the junk yard or????? If so you can ebay them off and buy the upgraded modified GM vortec heads from Summit. Not a bad deal.
I've always started with new casting within the vortecs I've built.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 09-27-2007 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:54 PM
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So what your saying is order a XE294 ground on a 107 LSA hyd tappet cam direct from Comp Cam and use 1.6 rockers instead of going hyd roller? and then just keep the Vortec set-up w/changed pistons, or use PN10621122 keep the pistons I got and use that special ordered hyd flat tappet cam? Like your already aware of I'm after a great strip/street motor that I can be more then proud of. Your right about selling the Vortecs there in really good condition, I get so caught up with buying stuff off e-bay that I forget I can sell stuff to.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2007, 06:06 PM
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Wow is it too hot down there????

if you want to go with a vortec 406 build it as I outlined above with a RPM manifold and XE284H-10 cam but change the pistons to a -22cc d cup.
Needs a 3000stall and 3.73's It's a nice combo.

if you want to build around a Dart 215 head with a 72cc chambers and flat tops go with the Xe294H (I would get one custom ground on 106-107LSA and 1.6's) ( darts like the extra valve lift and overlap especialy on a 400) and a single plane manifold (Port matched Vic Jr is hard to beat.)
use a 10" "3500stall" for this one.

Two different engine combinations. Don;t mix and match.
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:27 PM
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Okay I really do appreciate all of this great info on this engine build, I do know that these are to separate combos and not to mix and match I like both builds, but I'm not sure which to go with, now I'm not going to set here and say money is no object because it is, but I also don't want to finally get it all together and wish I would have spent another couple of hundred dollars and done this or that differently either because don't nothing cost more then doing it again. So out of these two builds what do you think the characteristics of each would be? Which would you build?
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:36 PM
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Well i built and run the 406 with vortecs RPM and Xe284Hcam.
as discribed above. I like it. has a cool prostreet rough idle and axle busting torque to 6000rpm. The measured cr is only 9.8:1. Runs on piss water.
With plenty of margin planed in for a little nitrous fun.
Also drives very nicely on the street. that is very subjective and very important to the long term satisfaction of the car project. Its easy to get tired of a radical motor combination after awhile if it does not drive well in cruise mode. Especially if the power brakes don't work half the time.
This one does. Since you don;t sound like you have a lot of experience with this stuff I recomend the milder combination. It's still got enough growl to scare ya and the nabours.
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:55 PM
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Ok thats something that I will really take to heart the long term, after the excitement has gone satisfaction of the motor and how it drives on the street. Wouldn't a vacuum canister resolve the problem with the brakes?
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:02 PM
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Trust me on this one build the milder combo. Whats it going in?
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:09 PM
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Another 86 Oldsmobile Cutlass, I had one with a 350 bored .60 over, flat top pistons, Vortec heads, roller rockers, bigger springs, screw in studs, EX294 cam, Air-Gap Intake, 700r4 trans w/3000 stall converter and 3.73 gear drove it about a week before it was stolen...

Last edited by Olds86; 09-27-2007 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:27 PM
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well i would build the vortec 406 and run a th-350 with a 11" "3000 stall" and 3.73 or 4.10's. You'll need some real sticky tires like the M/T Et streets.
be sure to hang on when ya punch 'er.
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:36 PM
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Well because I already have the Vortec heads, thats probably the engine I'll go ahead and build.
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