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Old 06-21-2004, 02:40 PM
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Help

I just painted a car allover BC/CC, looks great, slick and perfect.
ten -20 minutes after the last coat of clear 4 different cracking spots poped up in differnt areas of car what gives? Never seen this in ten years.

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Old 06-21-2004, 03:09 PM
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Cracks in the clear or in the clear/color? If the former sounds like the clear is curing B4 the color coat. If the latter, sounds like the color/clear, as mixed, is not compatible w/ the sealer.
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Old 06-21-2004, 05:33 PM
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Its in the base looks like busted glass. 4 spot in differnt places
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Old 06-21-2004, 06:43 PM
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Shattering!
This is rare and over years I have seen it about half dozen times in person and heard of maybe 30-40 other times from painters.
Before I commit need to know.

Are all these spots at the edge of a panel next to another panel?
Are they all 2" to 6" diameter?
Is the color a medium to dark metallic?
Was it very humid when you shot the base?
Did you wet the floor?

The above were the common denominator with all the past problems and I have only heard of .or seen it with one brand of base.

If everyone of the above are true don't fix it till I tell you how or
or you will swear your paint gun is shooting out paint stripper.

If anyone of the above don't apply, than I don't have a clue.

Last edited by BarryK; 06-21-2004 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 06-21-2004, 07:36 PM
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Like u said but it was starting to rain and wet walls and flor.
medium blue metallic. 3 coats 20 min wiate between.
no seeler over 3 year old factory.
most spots aer 3inchis.
7000 bass first time ever used.
What to do?

i want to take a pick hamer to rep.
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Old 06-22-2004, 04:11 AM
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Merry Xmas,

Here is how to fix.
Do not try and sand the splits out of the base, if you break through the clear anything you put over that spot from epoxy to 2k primer is going to lift that base and you will be stripping the panel or dry spraying until next year.

You have less than a mil of base and the clear is your best sealer at this point.
On each panel that needs repaired wet sand the clear on that panel with 1500 wet and don't break through.
Spray the cracked area spot with base, one or two coats is all it will take.
Then spray one wet coat of clear over the whole panel.
Do not spray two coats of clear for potential solvent popping.
We have never had the cracks come back doing it this way.

Is taking a hammer to the rep explained in P Sheet?

Last edited by BarryK; 06-22-2004 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 06-22-2004, 02:05 PM
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thanku Barry and my shop manger says thanks. worked great
the serman william guy said it was the dupont wax and greese
remover r the 3000 ppg clear?
My boss said bs, neve use that s-t again.
did i f-up?
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Old 06-22-2004, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kosmao96
"thanku Barry and my shop manger says thanks. worked great"
************************************************** **
Your welcome.

************************************************** **
"the serman william guy said it was the dupont wax and greese
remover r the 3000 ppg clear?
My boss said bs, neve use that s-t again."
*************************************************8
I want to laugh, even though I have heard this before and the sealer was not compatible and you tacked it wrong, you used a 1.4 and should have been a 1.3, you used a 1.3 and should have been a 1.4.. It s funny but its more sad that they think the painter is that stupid!
But in all fairness to the S&W rep he really has no idea of why you had this problem. Your favorite local stripper has just as much knowledge about your problem as he does.
If he goes to his manager with the why question, this is the answers he's giving him! Why? Because he does not know the answer! Do you think the lab came to the National sales manager and said if the air temp is 93 and humidity is 80-90% and they wet the floor this could happen? No way! (just an example used)

But he works for a big company They get this real self important attitude and even though you probably make more money as a painter than he makes and he is probably hard pressed to paint anything bigger than a panel in his training class, to him your just a low life idiot! When I say this I'm speaking of a lot of company's in this market , not singling out just one. I see this EVERYDAY!
I was at an open house for a big jobber store a while back and afterwords 6 of us went out for drinks, all paint reps with 3 different companies and they started bad mouthing the painters that came with questions. None of them knew thats how I started out and when pointed out party turned real dull and short!
There was a statement made on here a little bit ago "most painters don't know harsh from mild" or close to that,
I had to get off the computer and go beat my wife not to respond.
I'm in 1000-1500 shops a year and I don't find this to have a bit of truth to it! When you see painters making up-wards of $200,000 a year they cannot be stupid.
************************************************** *
did i f-up?
************************************************** **NO! It had nothing to do with you, it was just your lucky day and you should have bought a lottery ticket. and just a quirk built in that base.

Last edited by BarryK; 06-22-2004 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 06-23-2004, 08:27 AM
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Barry, if you take the time to read this you may find that there are people with other life experiences than yours. First off I should not have said “most” painters don’t know strong from mild wax and grease removers. However, “many” don’t and that is what I should have said. This is a moot point being we were talking to a home hobbyist and we certainly can’t expect him to know the difference!

I have to say out of the thousands of shops I went into as a rep, I seriously doubt any painters were making $200,000. I am certain there are guys who do, but that is NOT the average painter, not by a long shot. The average painter in America is hard working middle class guy who makes no where near that. You are very right, there are plenty reps with the attitude you describe, they think because they have Dockers on they are better than the painter. But not all of them, not even most of them that I know. Maybe I have been exposed to a rare bunch, but I worked with 13 reps in my division and about 10 of them came out of the field and had a full respect for the job and the man who paints cars for a living just as I do.


Now, you have to realize that not all painters know what you know. That isn’t a bad thing, and isn’t knocking them. I painted for 20 years (making a far side less than the $200,000 or equivalent for the time) and when I became a rep I found that I was about average, most painters knew about what I did regarding the technical end of the business. Many painters do not know there are different strengths of “wax and grease removers”, they have an idea as I did, but not a working knowledge. That is at least with the painters I worked with. Maybe we are a dumb lot out here, I don’t know, I am going with what I experienced. This is the point, like most people in any job or at home for that matter, get into a rut or a rhythm, what ever you want to call it. They went to the paint store 10 years ago, grabbed some “wax and grease remover” and that is the same “wax and grease remover” they have been grabbing or having sent over since. They didn’t learn a lot about the others, because they didn’t “need” to. I did this, and I found most guys were just like me and did the same. Most do not go to any tech classes offered by the paint companies. If they do, they go once or twice and that is it. Most live by what they learn in the shop and really don’t give any respect to the education they could get. Most have the attitude about reps and the “company men” as you do. That is unfortunate because the “company men” have a lot to offer.

I had worked in collision shops painting every day, matching colors everyday. I had did body repairs every day as well. As well as built, co-built and painted award winning magazine cover cars. I am proud to be among the guys (and a few gals) who do this work. Auto bodymen and painters are the most skilled craftsmen/artists among any person that works with their hands in my opinion. I am not the best and I understand that, I fully respect anyone who puts his heart into it and does his best.

I don’t know what you do for a living, it sounds like you are a gun rep or something. What exactly do you do? But you came from the shop painting everyday as I did, I would think we should be on the same wavelength. You have to admit going to all those shops teaches you something, something you could not learn staying in one place painting. You have became a much better painter since you have been exposed to so much, I will put money on that. I have had a similar experience. The five years on the job with technical training I was taught by S-W and the exposure to so many different situations in so many different shops taught me more then fifty years would as a painter.



When I repped, I worked hard to solve problems, it was something I loved doing. Solving problems did not mean blaming the painter. It meant FINDING the problem and SOLVING it for the guy. One thing I learned about this stuff is that ALL brands can provide a nice job, all of them. I had shot S-W for many years when I got the job, and I was after all representing S-W so I better believe in it. But I wasn’t a Jim Jones follower for goodness sakes. I found real quick that in the hands of someone who WANTED it to work, any brand could do the job. I fully respect all brands and look at them with total objectivity. I am not a boot stepping S-W man, never was. If I could provide something to a shop what they were not getting from the paint they were using, I sold it to them. It is not to say that they couldn’t have done the same thing with the paint they had, it is the rep for that brand didn’t do his job so I did. It is that simple, I provided the service and I got the sale, fair enough. Many times I even helped the painter with a problem he was having, knowing I would never get the sale.

There is a reason a rep will say the “you needed a 1.3 tip” or something “stupid” like that. Because a lot of time he is right, that change maybe would correct the problem. But first let me start with trouble shooting. You know as well as I do that when visiting all these shops you see a pattern, very quickly you see what works and what doesn’t. After a short while on the job I could over the phone solve most problems. First off, there is one thing that causes 90% of the problems, solvent. Poor atomization, incorrect solvent choice, temp in the shop, gun travel speed, wrong tip, etc. Solvent in one way or another is the cause of most of the problems, period. It is not poor product, it is not “bad batches” it is solvent. You know that as well as I do. So, let’s say the product is sub standard. You hate S-W, ok, let’s say the S-W product the guy is using is a temperamental POS. It DOES work in the right conditions but a little out of it’s safety zone it fails. Lets say this guy is GOING to use this product, for what ever reason, his boss wants him to, or the painter wants to use it and the boss is the guy I want to make happy, what ever, he is GOING to use this product. What good would it do for me to walk in there and tell him it is junk and forget it? I can’t do that, I have to solve the problem, that may be telling the painter he did something wrong. One time I was trying to be as PC as I could in explaining what went wrong to a painter. They guy stopped me and said “what in the heck are you trying to say, I don’t understand”. I said “You F&^$ed up”. He said, “oh, that I understand, how do I make it stop?”. He needed to know, he didn’t care why, he needed to know.

Can that tip size or some other seemingly irrelevant joke be the cause, sure it can. I call it “When the planets are aligned”. That being for instance, if you were using 70-90 degree temp and it was 70 degrees plus the tip was 1.5, plus you had to apply two more coats of color because it was a transparent color, you were a little lazy that day and had a little slower than normal gun speed, WHAM, you have solvent pop or die back or some other solvent issue. The painter says, “I use these products all the time and they have never done this”. Well, the “Planets weren’t aligned” the other times. It was 80 degrees or he moved a little faster or something. If just one of these points were different he wouldn’t have had the trouble. If it was 80, if he didn’t have to apply the extra coats for coverage, OR if the gun tip would have been 1.3 instead of 1.5. So there is a time when something like that could solve the problem.

Getting back to something I said a few posts ago. You walk in a shop as a rep and find a problem, this problem is NOT happening at all the other shops in town, what do you do? You have to tell the painter he is wrong. The painter may not like it, maybe even think “This rep thinks I am dumb”, well the ten other shops in town don’t have the problem! He isn’t “dumb”, he has just made a mistake and if he wants to listen, he will not make it anymore. What is wrong with that?

I have a genuine desire to help the home hobbyist, that is why I post in forums such as this. I think the industry has an attitude that it walks on water and you have to be a master do to it. I think it short sheets the home hobbyist and I like to help them through the process. As I stated before, if there is one thing I found as a rep it was if you follow the tech sheets to a T you will just by the odds produce a better job, PERIOD.

Sure there are “field modifications”, and being as keen as you are on the subject, I know you have made them with success. However, we can’t expect a home hobbyist to pull it off. If he sticks with the tech sheets and we can walk him thru them, he is MUCH better off.

I am now back in the shop, I don’t paint at all these days, so I may miss a thing now and then. But I am darn glad I worked as the rep for those five years. I am a much better bodyman and painter because of it. I have opinions and I have facts to offer. I may even have a different perspective that you could learn from, you never know. I do know one thing, you have listened to someone or you wouldn’t know what you do.

In closing, we are talking “generalities” here. I am not saying “painters are this and that”. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Have a good day Barry and for goodness sakes, don’t even joke about beating the wife, that isn’t even funny. Go hug her instead.
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Old 06-23-2004, 01:00 PM
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I did take the time to read and will say, what you wrote on how you did your rep job was more like the old days an ex painter wanting the greener grass of being a rep but at least they knew what they were doing.
Today that is changing the companies are going for cheap and getting rid of the ones on the old pay programs, ppg last year got rid of over 200?? Its to sad.
I don't have anything against S&W, would I buy it? NO! I when, I have time try to use all the different bases to keep up but I always go for the premium ones. Should S&W feel bad that I don't buy there product? No because I won't buy omni or nason or
limco or u-tech or Sikkens but I'm at a disadvantage as I own a paint company and make product (I've tried to keep quite on here) so I know how products are made, I know what resins are used in other products so I'm not like a newbie painter that going to gage something on how it sprays or looks same day I want only one thing-Longest life possible.
You asked, I will answer.
Started out as a painter, and went to school for 9 years nights and weekends. paid for by my painting, been in this all my life but two years for a big oil company and corporate life is not for me! I'm just a bullheaded painter, not a yes man.

Two things will get you fired at my company with no second chances. Sticking your pecker in company ink well or lying to a painter or jobber.
Just an extension of the the way I think, right or wrong!
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Old 06-23-2004, 02:03 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Wink

I had a feeling we were on the same page on most points, right on Barry.

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Old 06-23-2004, 02:40 PM
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Agree! Thank you.
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Old 06-28-2004, 02:29 PM
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my shop manager printed your stuff and the rep admittted
he had this hapen befor.
He wont be back.
thanks again
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