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Old 09-26-2005, 05:37 PM
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Help BG Tech Can;t Breath Can't Tune

I need Help with this Carb or I am going to halve to get rid of it and buy something that works.

Here is the problem.

Start the car up and let it warm up adjust the idle eze all the way out so it is getting maximum air and I can barely get it to idle at around 1100 rpm. adjust the 4 corner screws until I get a lean Idle roll then open them up about 1/8 of a turn. Even with the idle eze turned all the way out the idle adjust screws are not very responsive but here we go to the heart of the problem. The idle is so rough it sounds and feels like the exhaust pipes are going to pound there way through the floor of the car. Also the exhaust burns your eyes so bad if I start the car up for more than about 10 seconds my wife comes out of the house complaining that she can't breath. Further to the frustration if I hold the rpm at about 2500 to 3000 the smoke and burning eyes does not go away. It idles like crap and smokes. it runs kind of ok at part throtle but after about 30 seconds you cant see the end of the driveway for the smoke.

This is a mighty demon carb on a freshly built 383 with 11.5 to 1 compression ported SR heads, the cam is comp cam XE284h

Help!!!


Ric

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Old 09-26-2005, 09:00 PM
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On my Mighty Demon I had a bad power valve that made my exhaust fumes lethal and the car wouldn't idle under 1000 rpm. It was sucking fuel thru a ripped diaphram. Found it on a dyno with air/fuel ratio test. Fixed that and rejetted up one size and I'm near 14.5-14.8 A/F ratio now. A few more adjustments and the car idles fine when cold and only has a small lag on a pedal stab to WOT. 4secondsflat.com look there too very cool, smart people.
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:27 AM
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Ric,

Need some more information about your combination. How much initial timing are you running? What are the rest of your engine specs? Where do you have the rest of the carburetors settings?
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:01 AM
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Timming is set at 16 degrees base and I have a vacum advance can that produces full advance at 8 inches of vaccum ( engine makes 10 inches of vaccum at idle.). The vaccum can is connected directly to manifold vaccum so as soon as the engine starts the timming is 24 degrees advanced at idle.
( I have the weights taken out right now because I didn't want them to affect timing until I can get the carb set to a decent idle. I will work on the rest of the advance curve when this thing idles properly.)

Carb is set so that the transfer slot is square front and back. ( I already tried square on the primaries and almost closed on the secondaries. Same problem)

The Idle eze is turned out all the way. The 4 corner needle valves are set to a lean idle roll then opened up about 1/8 turn the end up somewhere between 1.5 and 2 turns open from seated position.

Floats are set slightly below the middle line on the window.

The cam as far as I remember has .500 and .505 lift and 284 duration both sides. with 110 degree center line.

Exhaust is headers into 2.5 cat back system. ( one interesting thing is that it seems to idle just marginally better if I open up the cutout.) It also seems to idle a little better if I unhook the alternator.

400 crank in .030 over 350 block with Keith black flat top pistons and World Products SR heads ported to 180 CC intake runners full bowl port on both exhaust and intake. 1.94 intake and 1.5 exhaust valvles.

I can't think of anything else you might need to know to figure out why this !@#$!@$!@#$ does not idle.

HELP

Ric
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:36 AM
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Which Mighty Demon? 650 ? 750?

What intake manifold?

How much vacuum in the manifold at idle?

Have you done anything with the air bleeds in the top of the carburetor?

Any spacers under the carb?

You may need more initial timing, with the vacuum connected crank it up to about 35-40 total and see how it responds.

Watch the vacuum readings in the manifold as you crank up the timing.
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Old 09-27-2005, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuda66273
Which Mighty Demon? 650 ? 750?
It is a 650

What intake manifold?
Air Gap

How much vacuum in the manifold at idle?
10 inches steady

Have you done anything with the air bleeds in the top of the carburetor?
Carb is brand new stock out of the box no modifications

Any spacers under the carb?
[I]No spacers[/I]

You may need more initial timing, with the vacuum connected crank it up to about 35-40 total and see how it responds.
HUH???? are you talking at idle or total advance? as it is I have 24 at idle and by the time I get to 2500 rpm I will have 36 to 38 depending on what I limit the mechanical at.

Watch the vacuum readings in the manifold as you crank up the timing.
When I crank up the timing to and watch the manifold vaccum should I also be turning down the idle to maintain the same rpm? If I don't obviously the rpm will increase as will the manifold vaccum.

Ric
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Old 09-27-2005, 09:41 AM
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You need to get the timing springs and stuff together and working first. You can't set up a carb with the timing floating around. Set the timing to 16-18 intial, and 36 total and leave it. Then leave it till you get the carb settings as best you can. Then mess with the timing agian to optimize, then back to the carb to optimize, then back to the timing then...

You should be pulling at least 14-16 inches of vacuum at idle at 900 RPM.


To set mixture settings, set your timing and leave it, then set your mixture screws to leanest setting while constantly going back to reset the idle every half turn of the carb screws. Recheck timing, if it changed, you can either make a spring adjustment to keep the weight's from being opened and idle speeds or just reset it. Then go back and repeat with the carb.

Unplug the vacuum advance till your done tuning. All your doing there is confusing your self.
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Old 09-27-2005, 09:46 AM
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The 650 is probably a good choice for this combo in a street application.

Air Gap manifold is probably hurting you, we've had several similar issues to yours with the Air Gaps, they're a great manifold but we find for street use they have just too much plenum volume. This slows the fuel down killing off the velocity and the fuel particles start to gather together and form droplets inside the manifold....end result is loading, fuel puddleing in the bottom of the manifold and general poor throttle response. We've had great success with this manifold on moderate bracket cars that launch in the 3000-4000 RPM range and even better when we use 1-2" of 4-hole spacer under the carb.

10" of vacuum is reasonable and indicates that you probably don't have any vacuum leaks, however that cam is only about 228 at 50 and should make 12-14" at idle. Again, I think the cam and manifold combination are part of this issue. We wouldn't consider the Air Gap without a 240 or better at 50 duration to maximize this combination.

The outer bleeds for each venturi control the fuel to the idle and transition circuits, by opening up the bleeds by about .010 you can substantially add more air to the mix and further pre-emulsify the fuel going into these circuits. This will lean the idle down and give you more adjustability on the 4 corner mixture screws. In a couple of combinations I've actually pulled them out and the car ran way better...this is extreme of course and I'm not suggesting you do that....yet :-)

The more 4 hole spacer you can get under that carb the better your throttle response will be and the cleaner your idle...but again this is a band-aid for what in my opinion is too much plenum volume for the cam, compression and CID.

Timing.....only at idle, you should not exceed 36* total timing in the motor under any load. This is for carb idle tuning only, once we establish where we need to be on the initial timing we can determine where the mechanical limiter stops need to be set, how much vacuum timing we need and at how many inches of vacuum.

You will need to continue to reduce the idle speed as you move the timing up so we can get the correct vacuum readings. You brought up an interesting point here....why does the RPM go way up as you advance the timing? You haven't added any fuel or air so why does the RPM jump so high. Your now burning the available fuel and air more efficiently and reaching maximum expansion in the combustion chamber at the correct position of 12-15* ATDC. Simply put, Fuel burns at about 3.5 Meters per second and the flame front has to travel across the bore before expansion begins. If you look at a Hemi engine you'll see that the plugs are in the center of the bore, when the plug fires the fuel the flame front travels 360* and only needs to travel 1/2 the bore diameter before expansion begins.... hence we time a Hemi at 32*. Comparing a stock Chevy head which has the flame front ignition point on the edge of the combustion chamber, the flame has to travel further so it requires a bigger head start on the optimum expansion to crank position....36*.
One more example....if your running alcohol in your Chevy which burns even slower you can run 38-40-42* of timing depending on the engine combination.

Whatever your combination the objective is to reach maximum expansion at 12-15* ATDC to get the optimum push or pressure on the piston no matter what the throttle position is.

There's a few different ways to check for optimum timing in a motor, the most frequently used is a vacuum gauge, hook it up to manifold vacuum and advance the timing to maximum vacuum. Another method is by Engine RPM, this is a little more complex as you need to continually tune the carb as the timing is advanced...back and forth until you get max RPM with absolute minimum butterfly position.

Let's analyze a 1969 Dart 340 car, the ignition specs from the factory showed initial timing at 8 BTDC, sounds low right, but the vacuum canister on those old Mopar distributors would pull another 25-30* into the motor as soon as it fired for a total at Idle of 3-40 degrees of timing.

I recently worked on a 69 Mustang BONE Stock from the factory, it had 50* of idle timing, ran beautiful until he tried to accelerate and it went into full detonation, simple fix, we just changed the curve and reduced the total WOT timing from 36 to 34, still kept the 50* of idle timing. Remember most of these old style ignition systems are designed to release the vacuum timing as soon as the manifold vacuum drops=Increase load, then the mechanical side of the distributor takes over and advances the timing to engine RPM.

Remember, we burn Oxygen NOT fuel, when the oxygen runs out the fire goes out and we have a rich condition, which is nothing more than unburned fuel.

The carb is a metering device, if we allow the carb to put more fuel in the combustion chamber than there is oxygen to support complete combustion it'll be rich and stinky. We can control the fuel load or mixture ratio, what can't control is the amount of total air and fuel drawn into the motor, that's determined by CID. The amount of combustion supporting oxygen with that measured amount of fuel and air is determined by air quality, density which is basically oxygen percentage.

I doubt very much that there's anything wrong with your Demon, in my opinion based on nearly 40 years of tuning carbs and ignition you have some small combination issues which are complicating your tune-up and you need to address your ignition and timing events.

I've done this a few times over 40 years and worked on a few different carbs, never have I ever found a better carburetor with the infinite tuning of a box stock Mighty Demon. Yes, you have to know what you're doing, they aren't idiot proof like some of the junk carbs out there but once you get it figured out and properly tuned there is nothing $ for $ that can even come close to Mighty Demon for $499.00.

I can see beyond the tree of a few chips in a float bowl or the odd mix up in jetting to see the vast forest.

If you email me direct I'll send you a FREE copy of my E-book which explains even more about your tune-up.

tech@4secondsflat.com

One more note.....you Guy's need to go easy on poor Ole Tech @ BG, you have to realize that his hands are tied by the limitations of a big Corporation. He's not going to get into your ignition systems and combinations, that's not their business, it's up to YOU find a qualified ignition company to help you set up your ignition for your High Performance Semi Race motors to run on PUMP Gas. I know this man and he has as much or more knowledge than anyone on this board including me, respect his situation and be careful about flaming his product or advice, unless your more knowledgable than him your post may come up in a "Here's Your Sign" discussion.

I also know that he posts on this board and others on his OWN time, Off the Corporate Payroll, listen to what he says and try and read between the lines. I'm sure he'd love to just tell most of you to call us and get your distributor fixed and quit whining, but again we're not affiliated with BG and until Barry writes me a check and owns my ***** they're not going to refer anyone, as you all know, favoritism is frowned upon in Corporate America.

Last edited by cuda66273; 09-27-2005 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
I've done this a few times over 40 years and worked on a few different carbs, never have I ever found a better carburetor with the infinite tuning of a box stock Mighty Demon. Yes, you have to know what you're doing, they aren't idiot proof like some of the junk carbs out there but once you get it figured out and properly tuned there is nothing $ for $ that can even come close to Mighty Demon for $499.00.
Any carb performance specialist will outperform any carb box stock for the same amount of money. Every time.
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:12 AM
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Quote: Any carb performance specialist will outperform any carb box stock for the same amount of money. Every time.

I guess I don't quite understand what your trying to say?
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Old 09-27-2005, 11:21 AM
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carb

Ok before you do anything you need to find out if the carb is leaking fuel into the intake.... You can set timing and idle ease screws untill the cows come home and it will not fix the rich condition if there is raw fuel entering the intake.....

Put a new gasket on between the carb and intake, fire the engine. run it up to temp. Then remove the carb and see if that gasket is getting wet with fuel..

I have had some problems with the BG carbs,in respect to this problem, If you find the wet mounting gasket PM me and i'll give you some things to look for..

Keith
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Old 09-27-2005, 12:14 PM
Technical Support Barry Grant
 
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Ric,

The first thing I'd like to do would be to have you check for a vacuum leak. Your carburetor sizing should be excellent, and where you have your timing shouldn't be hurting you. I do agree with the fact that you're going to make more work for yourself redoing the advance curve after the fact, since you'll probably need to redo your idle calibration at that point.

Normally as far out as you are with your mixture screws would lead to a very rich idle condition, which is what would lead me to believe you may have a vacuum leak. Does the fuel stay in the same spot in the windows once you shut the vehicle off? H

How far out do you have the Idle-Eze? Is there anything that you do that makes the engine idle any smoother, or worse? Also is this a new combination, or have you replaced something that was working properly.
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Old 09-27-2005, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuda66273
Quote: Any carb performance specialist will outperform any carb box stock for the same amount of money. Every time.

I guess I don't quite understand what your trying to say?
You were say the demon is the best carb for 500 dollars. I meant tht if you already have say a 650 holley, you can send it to a carb company like< Willy's, keith Dorton, KP, Carb specialties, ETC... and for $500 they will send you back a carb you may not believe it not fuel injected.
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Old 09-27-2005, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsongrass1
You need to get the timing springs and stuff together and working first. You can't set up a carb with the timing floating around. Set the timing to 16-18 intial, and 36 total and leave it. Then leave it till you get the carb settings as best you can. Then mess with the timing agian to optimize, then back to the carb to optimize, then back to the timing then...

The timing is not floating around and I have chosen to trouble shoot this problem the way I have for the following reasons

First of all this Carb needs a lot of advance to work properly a starting point according to the BG website is 20 degrees advanced. Since setting the base timing to 20 makes it impossible to start the engine after it warms up any amount I have set the intial timing to 16 and connected the vaccum advance to manifold vaccum. I changed the vaccum can to a model that pulls in a maximum of 8 degrees of advance which is all in by 8 inches of vaccum. This means when I start the engine it is starting on 16 degrees of advance and immediately goes to 24 degrees advance and stays there because the manifold vaccum does not fall below 10 inches until almost wide open throttle.

I have removed the mechanical advance weights and installed the springs without the weights this effectively eliminates any variation in timing due to rpm changes by doing this I have eliminated all of the messing around that could be caused by timing variation .


You should be pulling at least 14-16 inches of vacuum at idle at 900 RPM.

As you can see from the following cam specs 14-16 inches of vaccum at 900 rpm is not going to happen. Duration and overlap are too large.

Camshaft Specification Table
Part Number 12-250-3
Engine 1955-1998 Chevrolet
262ci-400ci
8cyl.
Grind Number CS XE284H-10
Description

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intake Exhaust
Valve Adjustment 0 0
Gross Valve Lift 0.507 0.51
Duration At 0.006 Tappet Lift 284 296

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Valve Timing At 0.006
Open Close
Intake 36 68
Exhaust 82 34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These Specs Are For The Cam Installed At 106 Intake CL
Intake Exhaust
Duration At 0.05 240 246
Lobe Lift 0.338 0.34
Lobe Separation 110

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recommended Valve Springs 986-16



To set mixture settings, set your timing and leave it, then set your mixture screws to leanest setting while constantly going back to reset the idle every half turn of the carb screws. Recheck timing, if it changed, you can either make a spring adjustment to keep the weight's from being opened and idle speeds or just reset it. Then go back and repeat with the carb.

Unplug the vacuum advance till your done tuning. All your doing there is confusing your self.
As I explained earlier the vacuum advance is required to get enough timing for the engine to idle properly with this carb and cam. Mechanical is locked out so there is no variation in timing from idle to like 4000 rpm.

Ric
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Old 09-27-2005, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuda66273
The 650 is probably a good choice for this combo in a street application.

Air Gap manifold is probably hurting you, we've had several similar issues to yours with the Air Gaps, they're a great manifold but we find for street use they have just too much plenum volume. This slows the fuel down killing off ...........................
Wow Great response Cuda66273

Never thought about the air gap being a part of the problem. I probably won't swap it out until a last resort though. And further to your response you say air gap should not be used until you get to 240 duration. As you can see from the following cam specs this cam has 240 / 246 at .050. so maybe the air gap has still got a chance. Would 10" of vaccum be appropriate for this duration?

Here are the cam specs
Camshaft Specification Table
Part Number 12-250-3
Engine 1955-1998 Chevrolet
262ci-400ci
8cyl.
Grind Number CS XE284H-10
Description

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intake Exhaust
Valve Adjustment 0 0
Gross Valve Lift 0.507 0.51
Duration At 0.006 Tappet Lift 284 296

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Valve Timing At 0.006
Open Close
Intake 36 68
Exhaust 82 34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These Specs Are For The Cam Installed At 106 Intake CL
Intake Exhaust
Duration At 0.05 240 246
Lobe Lift 0.338 0.34
Lobe Separation 110


The Air Bleeds hmmm Don't want to start drilling or replacing stuff on the carb just yet but if none of the other recomendations from yourself and the BG Tech work I think this will be the first change from stock that I try.


That is a fantastic explanation of optimum engine timing and how to find it. The 26 degrees I have it set at is just a guess from asking question on this board and trying to make an inteligent decission as to what to do. Your method with finding the highest vaccum reading is the first time I have ever heard of an actual method for setting it correctly. This will be the fist step I take in trouble shooting this problem. (Actually about the 100 and 1st if you count all the stuff I have done so far.)

Anyway I spent quite a bit of coin on the mighty demon that is on this engine and I would not have spent it if I did not think it was the best carb for the application. I have a bunch of Q jets and 2 holleys sitting on the shelf in the garage and have no intention of switching to one of them. I want this to work I am not just ranting.

As for respect for the Bg Tech I would not have posted and asked for his advice if I did not think he new what he was doing. I appreciate the time he takes to reply and the knowledge he brings to help solve these problems.

Again Thanks for your great reply.

Ric
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