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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2013, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bygddy View Post
Bump as i see Richard is back
I'm in the middle of putting a business together and can't spend as much time as I used to on here, but will try to do a DynoSim for you this afternoon.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2013, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
I'm in the middle of putting a business together and can't spend as much time as I used to on here, but will try to do a DynoSim for you this afternoon.
That's really excellent of you, but don't worry about it in the least, I was mostly just teasing as i hadn't seen you around much. Whats the business or is that something you would rather keep close to the vest for now? Either....hope its going well.
Dave
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2013, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bygddy View Post
That's really excellent of you, but don't worry about it in the least, I was mostly just teasing as i hadn't seen you around much. Whats the business or is that something you would rather keep close to the vest for now? Either....hope its going well.
Dave
I'll tell you later about the business. I don't want to make any statements that I can't back up right now, but thanks for asking.

Here are the results of the DynoSim on your combination. Nice motor. VERY STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST 1.6 ROCKERS. They only made 4 more hp and 2 more ft lbs of torque as opposed to the stock 1.5 rockers, but would add more complexity to the geometry plus the introduction of additional forces against the lifter faces and cam lobes, not something that you would want to do on purpose in a flat tappet combination. Scorpion makes an excellent roller rocker for the money.

Retard the cam by 4 degrees on installation, putting it at the following events at 0.050" tappet lift.....
Intake open (-1) BTDC
Intake close (39) ABDC
Exhaust open (39) BBDC
Exhaust close (-1) ATDC

Here are the results with 1.5 rockers, 0.454" valve lift......

RPM HP TORQUE
1500...102...358
2000...149...391
2500...189...398
3000...245...430
3500...308...462
4000...369...485
4500...420...490
5000...458...481
5500...475...454
6000...472...413
6500...432...349

Peak volumetric efficiency 95.4% @5000
Peak BMEP 208 lbs @4500
This combo will make some hellacious cylinder pressure.
Just goes to show you that you don't need "outa sight" valve lift or duration if you start with a good set of heads.......
Be absolutely certain that you follow all the procedures listed here in order to make your flat tappet installation live a long and happy life.....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks

Last edited by techinspector1; 03-31-2013 at 07:43 PM.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2013, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
I'll tell you later about the business. I don't want to make any statements that I can't back up right now, but thanks for asking.

Here are the results of the DynoSim on your combination. Nice motor. VERY STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST 1.6 ROCKERS. They only made 4 more hp and 2 more ft lbs of torque as opposed to the stock 1.5 rockers, but would add more complexity to the geometry plus the introduction of additional forces against the lifter faces and cam lobes, not something that you would want to do on purpose in a flat tappet combination. Scorpion makes an excellent roller rocker for the money.

Retard the cam by 4 degrees on installation, putting it at the following events at 0.050" tappet lift.....
Intake open (-1) BTDC
Intake close (39) ABDC
Exhaust open (39) BBDC
Exhaust close (-1) ATDC

Here are the results with 1.5 rockers, 0.454" valve lift......

RPM HP TORQUE
1500...102...358
2000...149...391
2500...189...398
3000...245...430
3500...308...462
4000...369...485
4500...420...490
5000...458...481
5500...475...454
6000...472...413
6500...432...349

Peak volumetric efficiency 95.4% @5000
Peak BMEP 208 lbs @4500
This combo will make some hellacious cylinder pressure.
Just goes to show you that you don't need "outa sight" valve lift if you start with a good set of heads.......
Holy crap, even optimistic that sounds absolutely tire shredding fun...it could be off by as much as 100hp and still be stupid fun...! As for the rockers I have 1.5's left over, I believe they are crane? If that makes sense, but will have to dig them out. Was going to buy 1.6's so now I won't bother. Cam and lower end is in the car already but I do have a detailed build sheet from the owner, he was a huge fan of keeping records so i will see if there at info on the cam install.
Thanks so much for taking the time to do this.
Look forward to hearing about your new venture
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 06:16 AM
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i get more in the 9.8cr range, guessing at a .020 deck and 62 degree closing on the cam (guess only) w a 7.02 dynamic......so yeah, pump gas works (91-93 octane).....however....if you havent decked it, then that .059 quench is not very good....may have to take some timing out of it
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BigMo View Post
i get more in the 9.8cr range, guessing at a .020 deck and 62 degree closing on the cam (guess only) w a 7.02 dynamic......so yeah, pump gas works (91-93 octane).....however....if you havent decked it, then that .059 quench is not very good....may have to take some timing out of it
Yes, its been zero decked actually, I get 10.2 comp, with .041 quench.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 01:42 PM
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yeah thats about right, i went with the assumption that is wasnt decked cuz you didnt say, so i added .020 back in.....thats why i was saying a .059 quench......i had a motor almost identical and it made 415 @ 6400.....i had better heads though
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 01:43 PM
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****, i guess i dont read very well, i see you said zero deck now....sorry
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BigMo View Post
yeah thats about right, i went with the assumption that is wasnt decked cuz you didnt say, so i added .020 back in.....thats why i was saying a .059 quench......i had a motor almost identical and it made 415 @ 6400.....i had better heads though
Better heads? What were you using?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 03:14 PM
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I had a set of ported Canfields on it.......its be awhile, i think they were 200 intakes.....pulled hard up to around 6600 then the cam fell on its face.....
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bygddy View Post
So my heads should be here late next week, and i know et is all that matters, but would really appreciate some input, guesses on HP just so I can get an idea what to expect.?
So here's what it is.
355 SBC
0 decked, 4vr flat tops. 6cc dish
64 CC Profiler 195 heads.
.200/156.2
300/216.6
400/262.8
500/277.3
600/282.5
700/284.7
800/285.2
Comp 268h
218/218
484/484 lift using comp 1.6,roller rocker
10.3 compression
Rpm intake
750dp
1" 4 hole Carb spacer
Hei dist
Mid length headers to 2.5y pipe, to single mandrel 3" to the back to single bullet muffler
Yes I know long tubes are better, car is low, and roads suck here, and not going down that route again. So these will stay.
So that's what it is. Opinions? Thoughts?
Good or bad.
thanks
Dave
With 1.6 rockers and long tube headers off the top of my head I've give this about 450 horses around 6000 RPM. The short tube headers are going to hurt peak power by maybe 20-30 as the XE268H has a fair amount of overlap which likes and can take advantage of the pulse tuning present in long tubes.
You might be able to make that up in part with long 3 inch collectors instead of 2.5. But if the vehicle is low and the roads rough, you just have a problem that isn't easy to overcome without going to lake pipes outboard of and at the rocker panel's level.

The XE268H likes 1.6 rockers, these fast, short ramp cams react better to 1.6 rockers than do older muscle car design cams where a lot of ramp tends to be used which takes a more RPM and compression to overcome effects from the late and slow closing intake. Since today's unleaded fuels just don't allow ratios much beyond 9.5 for iron heads and 10.5 for aluminum running a faster acting cam to reduce the costs on compression of a late closing intake is a good solution. The back side in your case is going to be fast opening on the lift side which will want to emphasize wave tuning on overlap will not be effective with your exhaust.

But all in all this is a good engine layout and sure to push an engine dyno into the lower to mid 400 horse area.

Bogie
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbogie View Post
With 1.6 rockers and long tube headers off the top of my head I've give this about 450 horses around 6000 RPM. The short tube headers are going to hurt peak power by maybe 20-30 as the XE268H has a fair amount of overlap which likes and can take advantage of the pulse tuning present in long tubes.
You might be able to make that up in part with long 3 inch collectors instead of 2.5. But if the vehicle is low and the roads rough, you just have a problem that isn't easy to overcome without going to lake pipes outboard of and at the rocker panel's level.

The XE268H likes 1.6 rockers, these fast, short ramp cams react better to 1.6 rockers than do older muscle car design cams where a lot of ramp tends to be used which takes a more RPM and compression to overcome effects from the late and slow closing intake. Since today's unleaded fuels just don't allow ratios much beyond 9.5 for iron heads and 10.5 for aluminum running a faster acting cam to reduce the costs on compression of a late closing intake is a good solution. The back side in your case is going to be fast opening on the lift side which will want to emphasize wave tuning on overlap will not be effective with your exhaust.

But all in all this is a good engine layout and sure to push an engine dyno into the lower to mid 400 horse area.

Bogie
Its not an XE, just a 268H, 218/218, 469/469
As for exhaust, I do know I'm giving up something but not sure how much, the drivers side crossover meets the pass side fairy far under, and the pass is long, the merge is under the pass floor area, no cats, and they meet into a dual 2.5 to single 3" merge then 3" to the rear.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 04:45 PM
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I did pick up a brand new performer rpm for 100$ on my way home from work today! I had a used one, but couldn't turn this down lol. Dug out my roller rockers, seems I'm missing the poly locks, and 3 rockers, oops....so ordered new comp ones today, stayed with 1.5 tho, and a pushrod checker. Then called Dave at pro-filer and kinda got a tad pissy, its only been like 9 friggen weeks or something, he assures me they will go out this week. Better be worth it.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2013, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bygddy View Post
Its not an XE, just a 268H, 218/218, 469/469
As for exhaust, I do know I'm giving up something but not sure how much, the drivers side crossover meets the pass side fairy far under, and the pass is long, the merge is under the pass floor area, no cats, and they meet into a dual 2.5 to single 3" merge then 3" to the rear.
The plain 268H is not a bunch different from the XE it picks up 6 degrees of ramp coming from the .006 to .050 lift section. A bit less lift on both sides, a lot less exhaust duration, intake open and close events are almost idential, while the Lobe seperation of the 268H is a bit tighter that the XE. This cam will still respect 1.6 rockers with your head selection. You might want to consider a 1-3/4 to 1-7/8s primary tube header to insure the exhaust side doesn't limit the output as the lack of additional lift and/or duration could otherwise hamper the top end power. Back cutting the valves 20-30 degrees especially on the exhausts will help crutch this cam. Ops, I forgot your environmental limits. I'd stick with my peak dyno power at the crankshaft guestimate, but pull it down 30-45 hp installed rather than 20-30. Still darn respectable around 405 to 420 hp at the crank installed.

Bogie
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbogie View Post
The plain 268H is not a bunch different from the XE it picks up 6 degrees of ramp coming from the .006 to .050 lift section. A bit less lift on both sides, a lot less exhaust duration, intake open and close events are almost idential, while the Lobe seperation of the 268H is a bit tighter that the XE. This cam will still respect 1.6 rockers with your head selection. You might want to consider a 1-3/4 to 1-7/8s primary tube header to insure the exhaust side doesn't limit the output as the lack of additional lift and/or duration could otherwise hamper the top end power. Back cutting the valves 20-30 degrees especially on the exhausts will help crutch this cam. Ops, I forgot your environmental limits. I'd stick with my peak dyno power at the crankshaft guestimate, but pull it down 30-45 hp installed rather than 20-30. Still darn respectable around 405 to 420 hp at the crank installed.

Bogie
I could happily live with 420hp from such a simple combo....especially if it makes the torque I hope it does.
Besides....its got a 6 month shelf life before it comes back out and get some forged dished pistons in the fall. Then I get to see how "built" my 700r4 is lol.....
15#'s and 500-600whp should be fun to try
Oh....I picked up one of these last week because someone needed their dishwasher fixed lol.
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