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Old 06-29-2004, 08:01 PM
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HELP! New 32 Ford chassis issue

Brief history: I began the construction of a Downs 32 Ford 5 window coupe body and Roadster Shop chassis. I've had experience with the mechanical end of cars, and decided to jump into body and paint with this project to learn something new. I thought a good approach would be to take a class at the local college, turns out it was a mistake. While the instructor may have been good at his craft with fixing fenders in a shop, his communication skills left everything to be desired and did not like questions or discussions. I did learn basics of filling, glazing, feathering, etc. to move along on the fiberglass body. Out of the 12 signups, 4 gave up by the 5th class, and only 5 of us stuck it out for all 10 night sessions. Against my gut feeling, I tried to do as I was told early on, but then started digging out my own information by talking with people, referencing recent body articles in my car mags and books, and searching the internet turning up sites such as www.spraygunworld.com and www.autobody101.com learning what I wished I had in the first place. Asking his view on what I was finding out offended him. I was stunned. We were all amazed that during the entire course he never handed us even 1 sheet of paper with info to remember.

So, what have I got. The chassis is brand new, and the car was fully assembled; wiring and all. After the car was disassembled, the bare chassis was wiped down with RustiCide (phosphoric acid based product) which cleaned the chassis (or so I thought) removing all signs of rust and whatever. Under this instructor's guidance I waited the recommended 24 hours and sprayed a self etching primer followed by Painters Pride Premium 2K Urethane Primer Surfacer that his/school paint supplier recommended as an acceptable lower cost preface to the PPG sealer/basecoat/clearcoat finish.

Because this is a 32 highboy and the framerails are an important aspect of the car, I wanted to block the framerails to perfection. Right now, the entire chassis has been sanded with 400 grit, frame rails, crossmembers, everything. In many spots I broke through the self etch and primer surfacer back down to the metal by accident. These areas aren't large surface metal areas, but along corners and edges (newbie learning curve). To protect against rust, I touched those metal spots with RustiCide to prevent rust. I haven't done anything for about 4-5 weeks due to family obligations, yard work I'd been neglecting to work on this car, digging up information for correct procedures to finish this chassis and so on. I found this website, downloaded and read the material, and became concerned. So, here's what's on my mind:

1) Because he didn't have me clean the metal with DX330 or such, am I hosed or OK? Originally, I asked the manufacture of RustiCide their recommendations, and they said I could wipe down with RustiCide and prime.

2) In the spots where I accidentally sanded to metal, should I reshoot self-etch? If so, is it OK if it lands on the filler primer surfacer? Or, in those small areas can I shoot the filler/primer/surfacer onto the metal that's been treated with the Rusticide phosphoric acid based product. Or, Scotchbrite first and metal clean.

Bottom line, I need help to get this chassis back on a correct track. I think by the time I move to the fiberglass body I will have learned enough to do it correctly by the information I see available in this group and other resources.

Thanks,

Bill

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Old 06-30-2004, 04:28 AM
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Complicated!

Because you did not use 330 here is not a concern at this point.

MY personal feeling is the biggest error in advice you got was two
things.
Using the rusticide and second the Acid etch primer.

Personally if this was my frame still not together I woulds sand blast and start over but thats just my opinion and there are a lot of people that do it and like the way you were told to do it.

At this point don't recoat with the acid etch, you really have two choices where your at, spray a coat of epoxy over the whole thing or spray the 2K primer over the filler and bare edges where you need it..
I never recommend 2k over bare metal but in this case most 2K's
are right there with Acid etches in the corrosion tests (Bad)
so no harm done.

Best thing would be two coats of a good epoxy over the whole frame at this point.
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Old 06-30-2004, 05:31 AM
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I completely agree. Spray on a couple coats of a good quality epoxy primer. That will seal the surface and give you a good foundation for another light coat of primer surfacer before final paint.

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Old 06-30-2004, 07:31 AM
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Thanks for replies

I really appreciate your replies, from everything I've gathered I have a couple of options. But first, a couple of questions:

You said, "I never recommend 2k over bare metal but in this case most 2K's are right there with Acid etches in the corrosion tests (Bad) so no harm done."

1) Will the fact that this is not an everyday driver and more of a sunny day toy help the chassis to last longer without rusting? Or, is that irrelevant?

2) What would have been the correct procedure for this new chassis? Wipe down with DX330, self-etch or epoxy prime, then filler? Just asking in case I do decide to redo it now vs. gambling and doing it if/when it does start to rust.

Thanks again.

Bill

Sorry, also meant to ask what you meant by "Bad" in corrosion tests. Obviously, not good results, but what can I expect if I just continue on with options you guys suggested?

Thanks,

Bill

Last edited by RoadShow; 06-30-2004 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 06-30-2004, 11:05 AM
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Re: Thanks for replies

You said, "I never recommend 2k over bare metal but in this case most 2K's are right there with Acid etches in the corrosion tests (Bad) so no harm done."

1) Will the fact that this is not an everyday driver and more of a sunny day toy help the chassis to last longer without rusting? Or, is that irrelevant?
************************************************** **
In short the best 2K primers have about 65 hours holdout under proper salt spray tests and so do the very best acid etches.
Compared to epoxy that range from 300 hours to 1400 hours.
This does not mean the frame is going to rust as long as there is no chipping or scratching of paint. Than this will play in as rust creeping from the chip. The acid etch has NO durability at all as far as stone chipping as most acid etches are made of Vinyl Acetate.
You have other issues here, the acid cleaner was it washed off while wet,? acid does not evaporate but drys to a film (bad for adhesion) Another issue if a film was left, now how did the acid etch react with the film? Another issue, acid etches work great under enamel and lacquer but under urethanes melt so that real cheap urethane primer you used is loaded with Toluene and Xylene two cheap, dirty and slow solvents and they melt acetate real easy.
***********************************************

2) What would have been the correct procedure for this new chassis? Wipe down with DX330, self-etch or epoxy prime, then filler? Just asking in case I do decide to redo it now vs. gambling and doing it if/when it does start to rust.
*************************************************

Not what is proper procedure as there are many but the strongest and best long term would be on a new or a sandblasted frame would be.
Sand (just a quick rough up) with 80 grit than wash with wax and grease remover than shoot two coats of epoxy and let set over night.
Do not sand epoxy! Apply any filler and 2K primer (the cheap primer will not hurt epoxy)
Block out primer and paint or for maximum overkill spray one coat of epoxy over the 2K primer let set and then shoot your paint.

If you were to coat the frame now with two coats of epoxy it would help a 1000% but still like a house its only as good as the foundation.

EPOXY:
http://www.directaccessalliance.com/108412.html

Last edited by BarryK; 06-30-2004 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 06-30-2004, 03:08 PM
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the bodyshop manager called direct to order elpoxy and bought about $2000 of stuff. the larry guy knew you and gave tom your cell number.
hes going to call you to come buy shop for a day or 2 u in trouble
now!!!!!!!!!!
just to warn u!
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Old 06-30-2004, 03:53 PM
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BarryK,

Thanks for the detailed reply, excellent information. In regards to a couple of your question of how I did things:

1) The Rusticide phosphoric acid was not washed off, but wiped dry with a clean towel and left for 24 hours prior to painting per the manufacturers specifications. From your comments, this was not enough, it needed to be washed off, presumably with wax and grease remover.

2) You suggest that I could fill & glaze over the epoxy, to take care of any fill issues that filler primer won't take care of, but don't sand the epoxy. Won't I wind up doing that when I feather out the filler? Or, did you mean don't sand through it.

Thanks again,

Bill
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Old 06-30-2004, 04:59 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by RoadShow
[B]BarryK,

Thanks for the detailed reply, excellent information. In regards to a couple of your question of how I did things:

1) The Rusticide phosphoric acid was not washed off, but wiped dry with a clean towel and left for 24 hours prior to painting per the manufacturers specifications. From your comments, this was not enough, it needed to be washed off, presumably with wax and grease remover.
************************************************** **

For future reference, wax and grease remover will not neutralize acid, only water. I know a lot of the acid sellers say let it dry, why is beyond me. This is one of the reasons most manufacturers say skip this procedure as it never gets done right.
************************************************

2) You suggest that I could fill & glaze over the epoxy, to take care of any fill issues that filler primer won't take care of, but don't sand the epoxy. Won't I wind up doing that when I feather out the filler? Or, did you mean don't sand through it.
************************************************** *

Sorry, as my wife points out my 4 grade writing skills were not clear, again!
What I meant was the filler or primer will stick to the epoxy without sanding the epoxy first. As you feather the filler its common to break through in spots. Epoxy can be sanded, wet or dry with no problems as long as dry enough.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
*************************************************
Quote:
Originally posted by Kosmao96
the bodyshop manager called direct to order elpoxy and bought about $2000 of stuff. the larry guy knew you and gave tom your cell number.
hes going to call you to come buy shop for a day or 2 u in trouble
now!!!!!!!!!!
just to warn u!
***********************************************
Hey, I look forward to it!
I've known Larry at Direct for 25 years. He started out in a truck
and now has multi stores and is a major force in SE.
This guy knows his stuff! When I get stumped on a project like the black I'm working on now, hes the one I call.
See you soon!

Last edited by BarryK; 06-30-2004 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 06-30-2004, 06:50 PM
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Sorry, I disagree...

With your wife that is.

Your writing skill gave me a great education. It's just impossible to guess at what the next guy will be thinking in the conversation.

Thanks again,

Bill
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