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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2006, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2stroketurbo
I'm learning a lot from this thread. Kenneth, Fleetline, and Adkart are very helpful. Nice advice guys!. Looking forward to some great results on this guys s-10 orange peely problem here.... this is how we learn, from mistakes.

I'm about to undergo my 1st paint job soon. I'll probably be in the same boat soon.

Mark
I agree! Thanks for chiming in. I am so happy that people are willing to help on this forum.

I went to home depot today and picked up some more supplies to aid in my painting process. A proper regulator to mount at the gun, A large filter for the compressor, and a large box fan. I will also be picking up some of the mini disposable gun filters from NAPA soon to mount close to the gun.

So at the moment my currecnt situation is figuring out my air compressor setup. It's a craftsman 5hp 20gal. I'm not sure what the output CFM rating is but I might be able to look it up by serial or model #. Anyways I am very hesitant to go down and buy a bunch of copper piping and try to figure out how to run it and set it up in my garage right now, at this point id really like to try to get away with the hose that I have.

So my idea at the moment (be it an ok one or stupid one) is to run my first 25ft. section of hose around the garage up and down perhaps through the rafters above with dips in it. Then at the end of the first 25ft., end with a big dip and put in my large compressor filter in line, then run aother section of 25ft. hose which will end with my smaller disposable filter into the gun. Perhaps with so much hose I will run it outside a window and back to help cool it down if that would even help. Also I will dig up a fan to blow directly onto the compressor.

Then as far as my air ventillation system im still not sure what to do there. I have three windows in my garage, one on each wall and then 2 garage doors on the 4th side. I was thinking of maybe blowing across the 2 side windows or from the back window blowing in but the lined-up escape is out the garage door which would not be sealed very well. SO I guess ill have a little figuring to do on that. Either that or perhaps opening both doors and moving the fan closer to the truck work area and just blowing through the area from enough distance to not create too much turbulence.


Whew ok i think im done with my lengthy writing for now.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2006, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
You don't need an overly expensive setup for your booth. I'll tell you what I've been doing which has been working for me. My water trap isn't a big or real expensive one. Probably could find them at sears or similar for around $35 or so. I noticed harbor freight had a fairly large one on sale normally under $50. Not sure how good of quality it is, seeing tools there are hit and miss.
I run a 25' airline off my compressor, and bring it up to the rafters and just before it reaches the water trap I let the hose hang down in a few loops. On the other side of the watertrap I plug in another airhose to the gun which has a smaller tap and regulator mounted on it. I do drain the compressor right before painting, and sometimes leave the valve cracked just a hair. I also drain the water trap of accumulated moisture frequently. I really haven't had much of a problem with moisture or contamination in the line. Once in a great while I'll get a little water from a fitting. I normally don't get any so I stopped taping up fittings and the last thing I painted and I did get a few spits of water from the fitting on the regualator.
As far as my ventilation, I bought a 3000 cfm attic fan at a store near me. It was on sale for around $80 when I bought it. It is much better at ventilating then house fans which I used for many years. I keep it on the low setting when painting. It does move the overspray out pretty good. I have a sliding window in the garage I can take out, and I fill that space with furnace filters, and exhaust by setting the attic fan under the cracked garage door, filters in front of the fan, and seal up the rest of the opening with plastic. I also plastic the walls. One thing I could really use is more light (which you can never have enough of in the first place), but since I rent here, don't really want to have an electrician come out. One thing I do have is a fairly large compressor. I painted for years with my dads 5hp 60 gal, and it did fine spraying with conventional guns, but running my 8" orbital or a sandblaster it really struggled. Its nice having a compressor that hardly blinks while painting. Mine still runs quite a bit when using air tools that really take a lot of air. If you get you orange peel figured out, and plan on doing more of it, A fairly large aircompressor with a large tank is a very good investment. And twostroke, I am sure aaron and fleet are glad to try to help if we can. I am sure they as well as I, was in the same position at one time. My first time painting was with dupont centari enamel, using a cheap gun and a small 3 hp compressor. I don't remember having much orange peel, but had huge hangers all over the place. Some days I still feel like it is still 1986 and I am picking up the gun for the first time.
Cool. It sounds like your setup is similar to what I had in mind. How often do you get water up in your final filter by the gun?

As far as fans go, woudl it be best to go across the room or would angling it from above say in the rafters be a good spot? I suppose you don't want the overspray blowing right at you or your work so maybe that isnt a great idea.

My compressor is fairly weak for this type of job but I am off to college this fall and buying a new one would be a waste for me. It's a craftsman 5hp 20gal. It runs a LOT and does get HOT when I spray but I know it does put out more air than I am using because it is able to build up and shut off even at constant use. Another issue I had was my old water trap had broken threads on the plastic cup and constantly leaked a good amount of air. That is fixed now though.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2006, 04:32 PM
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I have discovered that over-reducing is helping a lot with my efforts to minimize orange peel (perhaps to due temp)
Yeah a slow reducer may be a little better in that temperature. I normally use slow even if the temp is a little below the range listed. I feel it gives more time for the paint to lay down nice and apply, solvents to escape. Just allow long enough flash times and be carefull of getting a bunch of runs. I was thinking maybe your tip size was a little small for acrylic enamel, but logic says that if you are getting orange peel, the tip would be too large not atomizing the paint enough and producing large droplets. If too small would be hard getting it on wet and really have to paint at a slow speed. If this is delstar you are using the tip range listed is a fairly large range, 1.3-1.7. Maybe your tip is a little on the small size, so overreducing is helping a little with atomizing also, dunno. The other thing would be too low of air pressure causing orange peel, other then that, it would be too thick of material as well as how you are spraying, ie, not keeping parallel, right distance and speed, gun fluid and fan not set right, or too fast a reducer or hardener. As far as setting up the gun when doing a large panel, I will start by setting the fan so it is large as I can, without the pattern being distorted. Look at some of the diagrams on fan patterns to see how it should look when adjusted right. The fluid knob I will turn open all the way so I get full fluid, then turn back in till the trigger first starts to move forward, and then in another turn as a start. After enough painting, you will make adjustments in the middle of spraying not even thinking about it, it just comes pretty natural.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2006, 04:41 PM
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My fan I place right in the middle of the cracked open overhead garage door. My window is up high on the other end of the garage right in the middle of the wall. In theory this should be a little like a semi downdraft booth, with airflow going towards the bottom of the car. Granted its not an engineered multi dollar booth, but seems to work pretty well for me. I do clean the garage and hose it down a day or two before, and clean all the junk out of it. The less things to possibly have dust sitting on them to stir up the better. Mine garage isn't sealed real well, but like I said I plastic the walls. A lot of dirt comes from you and the vehicle, so wash and blow out the vehicle well the day before painting (so you don't have water dripping from cracks in the vehicle in the middle of painting) and wear a good paint suit, and spray sock or hat. The best booth setups are downdraft, where the filters and exhaust are in the floor, and intake air is up high in the ceiling, with a proper balance of intake and exhaust to properly pressurize the booth. A downdraft setup pulls dirt and overspray toward the floor and away from the car and painter. I do get a little water up by the gun once in a great while, but if you keep the compressor and water trapped drained and avoid painting in real humid weather or in a wetted down booth (which raises humidity), you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2006, 06:06 PM
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Basically, for a one time use, all you really need rfor ventilation is fresh filtered air coming in, and filtered air going out. If you have 2 walls connecting that have windows, they will work. Place filters in each window, with a fan to either push air in, or pull it out. I actually painted one car with nothing but a box fan in a window, with a furnace filter on it, pushing the air out. I cracked the walk in door part way open for air coming in. Since they were on connected walls, the air was not flowing across the painted surface, but cleared the overspray out good.

As was pointed out, alot of trash in the paint comes from the painter and vehicle. Clean clothes, clean air hose, and realtively clean shop will make a big difference.

Aaron
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006, 06:46 AM
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Blacksunshine - Thanks!

I know that you can't go back in time, but, IMHO, the single stage urethanes are easier to control, mix and spray than acrylic enamel. Something to consider for first time painters or occasional painters.

Since we are talking of ventilation and trash in the paint here are a few tips.
1) Buy a tyvek suit or painting suit. As someone else stated most of the trash comes from you. Plus the suit protects you from the paint as it can enter through your eyes and skin.

2) If you are setting up some sort of exhaust, it is better to use positive pressure (fan blowing in) than negative pressure (fan blowing out). Negative pressure sucks trash from every crack & crevice. Plus, you won't be drawing paint & vapor across a non-explosion proof fan. They are both set up the same way, intake and exhaust, you just have to have your fan blow in, instead of sucking out. And if you want to get a little more fancy, your inlet should be high and exhaust low.

3) Proper respiratory protection. Nothing beats supplied air to a hood. Hobbyaire & Neoterik units are under $400. If you are wearing a tyvek or paint suit with the hood, you are very well protected from the harmful vapors. If you plan to wear a 1/2 mask respirator make sure you are using brand new filters. If you feel like you ran a marathon and smoked a pack of cigarettes when you are done, your breathing paint.

One more thing, if your buddy has his compressor set up in a garage, you/he should think about hard piping instead of using hoses right off the tank. Rubber hoses are terrible for condensation building up in the airline. 3/4" copper, black pipe, or galvanized will help cool the air quicker, and keep your air dryer. You should have at least 25' from the compressor to the drop. Sounds like a lot, but if you go up the wall 6' and down to your drop 6' you only need 13' between.

Again, good luck!
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Old 07-12-2006, 04:07 PM
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Thanks for the tips.


Alright well today I was starting to run my hoses around the garage and I realized that my hoses are way longer than I thought they were.

Is 100ft of hose too long? I can't really see any harm in it other than the compressor having more air capacity to fill. In fact I thought since im using crappy rubber/nylon hose anyways that 100ft would give it that much more distance to cool down. My tank is only 20gal anyways and its a 5hp motor putting out 11.6scfm@40psi and like 9.2scfm@90psi. My gun's max required air use is like 7.1cfm, so I think that setup (although not anywhere near optimal) will work.

I guess my 2 sections of hose were 50ft. each not 25ft. each... dunno how I messed that up. So I have a total of 100ft to work with. I have enough space in my garage to run them around just fine.

I also bought some 400grit to use to scuff over the test paint I have already shot. Do you guys think that 400grit would be a better paper to use to scuff the paint surface for repainting instead of 600grit for adhesion purposes? I did the urethane 2k primer over in 600grit because I wanted to be able to get the paint on as smoothe as possible without showing and scratch marks but I know some guys finish in 400grit and I thought maybe 400grit would be better to use on a coat of previously shot enamel to promote better adhesion.

Thanks again fellas,
Kevin
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006, 05:12 PM
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I think you will be okay, as long as there isn't a big air loss through that distance of hose. Don't know never tried with that long of an airline. I am sure there would be a formulas somewhere to calculate the loss. That being said, the more line you go through to get to the filter and away from the compressor give more time for air to cool helping with moisture. I least I think this would still apply when using a nylon hose. Worst case senerio is you could buy some hose fittings and make more hoses from the one, that is if you want to cut a new hose. I would try it and see if your gun is getting a good constant supply of air without running losing pressure, enough that you could get around the car with a coat. It would be nice to have a longer hose though painting. The way it is for me now, with a 25', I can go down one side of the car and part way around, but not completely, I have to walk back around when alternating sides during painting. Solid black enamel, I think your 400 will be fine.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2006, 07:33 AM
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Correct me if im worng, and I am often, but would it make sense to roll up a part of the hose and stuff it inside a ice cooler, pack it with ice and water to cool the hose / lines, to drop moisture. Then run a seperator after the ice box. Would it make sense to make some some of intercooler device that ran air through coils and it had a seperate cooling fan or what not? I dunno, just a cheap way to lower humidity in the lines...Just an idea
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2006, 09:14 AM
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Just thought I'd add a couple of my thoughts after reading this excellant thread. I've painted several cars from the far distant past when you used 97 coats of lacquer thru Centari. And all have had mistakes (correctable, but errors). Now I'm about to try my hand with the new (read expensive) BC/CC paints. I've asked some questions and have gotten some very good answers from some of the same folks in this thread. I now have the following:
1 6HP/30 gallon compressor with CFM rated for HVLP (still a little weak and MAY exceed its 50% duty cycle)
2 A HF Purple HVLP(??) gun for epoxy/2k and a Finishline III
for finish coats
3 A Hobby Aire fresh air system with hood, TYVEK suits, nitrile gloves. May consider my 1/2 face mask as well as I have become allergic to isos and/or paint solvents - whoopee
4 Plumbed my garage with a .75 PVC hard line, NEW water trap, a drip leg with drain valve, NEW hoses (and yes, I am aware that I should be using copper or galvanized air lines - so don't bash me - it's a one shot deal at this house)
5 Made a filtration system using furnace filters - with a window inlet, garage door outlet. Still need a fan and am looking for a squirrel cage hot air furnace circulating fan with an explosion resistant TEFC motor.
6 Enclosed the area with .004 plastic
So far, excluding the air compressor, have spent about $650 primarily for safety and to get a good paint job - paint at $100 to 200 a quart vs a complete $100 paint job years ago is frightening. I have most of my receipts and will total them up and post eventually and see how I compare with others.

Dave
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Old 07-13-2006, 10:15 AM
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You'll do just fine,
(I think basecoat/clearcoat is easier than Acrylic enamel.)

Shop around for your paint though, you don't have to spend that much
for normal colors, especially when doing an overall where matching
isn't as critical. You can buy some pretty nice basecoat colors for
under $200.00 a gallon. (like from SPI) and basic white or black for
around $100.00 Good luck and show us pictures.
(Make sure to have a swimsuit model in them too)
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Old 07-13-2006, 11:06 AM
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[QUOTE=jcclark]You'll do just fine,
(I think basecoat/clearcoat is easier than Acrylic enamel.)

Shop around for your paint though, you don't have to spend that much

I looked at standard ho-hum colors and went off the deep end for specialty color Chromabase DuPont gold and a dark saddle tan - yeah, I know, dumb, then two tone, but we only pass this way once.

I didn't even know SPI existed when I commited to DuPont, which is about the only pro paint around here. Barry seems to have a good product, plus seems to have good customer service that it's too bad I had committed

The guys at HOK PO'd me at a NSRA show, I'd keep the car in primer if they were the last paint supplier.

PPG isn't locally represented here anymore except in body shops - and they buy in bulk.

When I finally post the finished car, hopefully late this fall, the swimsuit model will probably need a full length fur coat

Dave
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Old 07-13-2006, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksunshine
Correct me if im worng, and I am often, but would it make sense to roll up a part of the hose and stuff it inside a ice cooler, pack it with ice and water to cool the hose / lines, to drop moisture. Then run a seperator after the ice box. Would it make sense to make some some of intercooler device that ran air through coils and it had a seperate cooling fan or what not? I dunno, just a cheap way to lower humidity in the lines...Just an idea
You know, I actually thought of this too when typing out my 100ft. line setup but then dismissed it because i thought it sounded a little out there. It may just work, although I'm not sure that I could effectively run hose into and out of an ice chest without cutting into the cooler itself and ruining it. I could run it down in through the top and out through the top again with something holding it, but im not so sure that the foot or two of hose that get in there would be enough to do anything. In addition, i don't think the hose is going to want to sink when it has 140psi of air in it, nor bend very well. Or perhaps I am wrong and it would make a big difference...

I also had another crazy thought.... if I had a creek near by I would have run it outside and through it then back but i dont have one close enough. But then I was thinking that I could take a long section of gutter and run it through that with running water from a faucet. That might just make the difference, expecially if I can find say 15-20ft. of gutter to run the hose in
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:17 PM
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I dont see why not...except for the creek idea, I think that would be too long. But to use a cooler you could Drill two holes in the top sides of the cooler run the line through, it should loop once or twice, throw something heavy enough to keep it from floating and pack it up with ice.

OR! since rubber sucks as a conductor, modify a fuel cool can, like the morosso insulated can from jegs (although 91.00) or a cheaper perma-cool power steering cooler (38.00), both with 3/8 fittings and should handle the PSI with no problem. I may get the power steering one and give it a shot, that radiato sitting in ice water will cool the #### out of the lines.
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Old 07-23-2006, 07:13 PM
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Hey guys, I'm back at it!


So basically up till today I had been prepping the body over real good with 400/600 paper. Finally today it came down to painting.

There are goods and bads.

The situation:

Ok so let me start off with saying that we have been in a heat wave this whole week and so it's been 90*+ every day. I have been really itching to get some paint down on the metal so this morning I woke up early to beat the heat.


So 9am I start spraying and it's about 73* and I stopped when it reached 83*. As a refresher, I'm using PPG Omni Acrylic Enamel gloss black paint. The reducer they gave me was the omni medium reducer (MR186) which is probably good for most situations but as I think I found out, not ideal in really warm weather.

The good:

I started out by over-reducing the paint mixture a bit to minimize my orange peel problems, which seemed to work wonderfully. It layed out real smoothe and everything. Also my new makeshift compressor/line/filter setup + gun tuning made the process much cleaner.

THE BAD:

After getting off to a good start I thought I wouldn't have any problems. WRONG.
Ok so my newest problem is overspray, but I think it's for a specific reason.

Here's whats happening. Basically I run across the panel with a good thick wet coat (say the hood) and when I come to the end and up and across again, where the two paint patterns meet there is nasty overspray roughness on the paint. Basically I could shoot the entire hood, then you could go back and see where my spray patterns were by the gritty lines where the two patterns met. When the air from the nose of the gun hits the panel, I can see a skin on the paint forming within probably 10-15 seconds, and that is when the overspray seems to be laying on.

Now, in my completely unprofessional opinion, I think the paint is drying too fast. It seems like when I come back across the paint should be wet enough so that any small overspray particles would just lay down and blend in rather than sitting on top making a rough texture... because the way i see it, you're ALWAYS going to have a bit of extra spray outside your pattern because the pattern is never perfectly contained and so the only way to get a decent job out of it would be for the extra particles to blend in while the paint is wet.

Is this correct?

SO, if I am on the right track then the problem/solution is likely to be
A) the temperature affecting the paint mixture's drying
and/or
B) the reducer im using

Now I thought that the MR186 medium reducer would be fine in 73-83* weather but for some reason im starting to think it might not be. I read on another board someone mentioning that MR186 is a fast drying reducer, which might be true regardless of the non-temperature-specific "medium" label.

And if it's not the reducer then I don't know what else to change unless I just need to wait until it gets down below 70*. Maybe it's not just the reducer but also the paint itself. I don't know?


The dilemma:

Now that I stupidly did almost the front half of the truck before really noticing the overspray issue in the light, where do I go from here?

I know that AE does not leave me a lot of options.

A) Can I try to wetsand the overspray off? If so, what grit?
B) Can I wetsand and then try to hit it with another finishing coat over top?



Ok hopefully im not typing too much to read. Here are so pictures that kind of give you an idea of what shes looking like. As you can see, the very front of the hood and the front bumper actually came out quite nice. (Lots of dust has settled on top of the dry paint)
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