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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2006, 10:06 PM
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The reducer selection may very likely be the problem like you suspect. By the time you spray half the hood and come back to get the other half, you don't have a wet edge anymore, and you get a dry streak.It would be my first guess. I always use slow reducer unless temps are really low. Just allow a little extra flash time if the temps are normal. The other thing could be your gun isn't atomizing right. Some guns just aren't as good at spraying newer higher solids clearcoats and you really have to dump on the clear to get a wet look. But I doubt that is the problem here being you are over reducing, and don't believe the omni is a real high solids clear, Been many years since I used it. Omni reducer is also a low grade reducer. It should spray the omni alright since thats what its for ( you are using an omni single stage paint right?) but don't use it in a better grade of paint. Its been so long since I've used ss enamel, but likely there are better grade reducer you can try in it, like you can use the deltron 885 urethane reducer in omni urethanes, just not the omni in the deltron. You can try wetsanding out the dry spray. I am not sure about the enamel, but I've gotten out some small dry streaks in clear before after a wetsand and buff, and didn't notice them come back at all. Worth a shot before repainting anyways and see if you can get away without using more material. I would try 1000 grit or so to start out with, go over with 1500. Maybe someone who uses more ss enamel will have a suggestion. I am going back in the archives here trying to remember pre urethane everything. Thanks for posting back your progress, glad to see you are making a little headway from last time anyways. I've had real problems with nason 496 select clear getting dry spots when I first started using it. There normal activator for it was a spot panel activator, but i don't think it stated that on the can at the time. I switched to another activator the next few times I used it and was able to get it layed out great then, but even with that activator it drys quick. They have a 497 clear that is more of a clear for doing an overall. Sometimes it takes you a few trys when you are new to something to figure out whats suits it best. I am trying a new line of base soon that I've never used before. Hope it goes well.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2006, 11:56 PM
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kenseth,
As always I very much appreciate your input and replies.

In this case with the overspray problem I was basically just trying to diagnose my own problem given what knowledge I have attempted to gain through this forum and other sources.

I feel very strongly that SOMETHING is drying too fast though. At this point I have begun questioning the details of my previous post. I'm not so sure whether it's the previous pattern that I layed down that is drying too fast or if it's the off-spray from the pattern that is drying as it lands on the surface.

That is, perhaps the light overspray on the outside of my gun pattern is drying as it is hitting the surface (while the concentrated pattern stays wet) which causes the problem.

RATHER THAN, the previous thick pattern drying too fast when I come back over it.


I can't figure which it is, I suppose it could be either or both. I'm starting to think that the heat might affect the smaller overspray particles first though. I know I read somewhere along the way that sometimes the atomized particles will dry partially before hitting the surface due to some problem (my guess heat or over-atomization of some sort?)


Ah well, just rambling my thoughts now.

I would really appreciate it if anyone else with some single stage or enamel experience could chime in here and give me some guidance. Or anyone who has dealt with similar problems. At this point im still hopeful in getting it right but im a little worried about fixing the mess I have made. I really don't want to have to sand it all down again (my fault of course).


Right now my only plan of attack is to either
A) Go back to the shop and buy some slow reducer and spend more $$$
B) Wait until it cools down. With medium reducer, not sure what temp seeing as I though the temp I sprayed in would be fine. I guess optimally 70* or below.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2006, 06:19 AM
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I agree with Ken. I feel you should be using a slow reducer. I always use a slow reducer and wet look hardener with A/E . One thing to think of also is that it might be 70 in your booth but what is the temp of the car. If its been 85 or 90 there for a few days you can bet that car is warm and will take a while to cool off. I'd do a little experimenting on an old panel first. Your close, real close. Make sure your pattern is correct on your gun. I would use a better grade reducer also. JMO of course. Put it on the way you want it to look. This what works for me. Keep us posted and good luck. Cheers!!!
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2006, 11:01 AM
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As you know from my earlier replies, Im about to tackles all the same obsticles you are dealing with. So this thread is really great beginner info, and will most likely help other beginners. Like I said before, your pain, other's gain No but I just want to say, its starting to look like your about to have it down and it's going to look real good, so I give you props on all the attempts to not just say screw it and leave it, but keep going till you get it right. Thats dedication to your project. Keep up the good work.
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:56 AM
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I'm no expert by any means. However, you're making great progress. Your paint is now laying out, where as before you had a big mess. I would try slower hardner and I bet that will cure your fast dry overspray issue. You will have to sand or scuff your newly painted parts again to respray, however, I bet that black will look really nice and deep due to all the layers once you get it figured out. Remember what fleet said. How it sprays out is how it's going to look. It will not magically look better with time. If you let it go as is it now, every time you see it you'll regret it and think what it could be.

I would anyhow.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2006, 12:12 PM
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Thanks for your support/input everyone. I really appreciate the information I've been getting from this forum.

I do plan on finishing it the proper way. It's just been a looong and frustrating journey. I'll probably just go over the top of it a little to give a bit of scuff and then shoot it again. It needed to be thicker anyways, I only got one coat on before stopping because of my overspray problem.

Now has anyone else had/worked with dry spot issues? I feel like i am diagnosing my own problem without the experience to do so. I don't know if it's happening because it's drying to quick or if it's something else like gun adjustment. I think the worst part is that because it's A/E it takes so much work to fix the issues that come up and I have been experiencing a LOT of issues. My next job will be a BC/CC but unfortunately I did not have nearly enough money for such a job this round, this was supposed to be a quickie budget job.

I do like to blame things that are not my fault
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2006, 04:06 PM
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Well that one picture looks like you got it laying out pretty nicely. I still think the dry streaks may be a combination of the reducer you are using, as well as it temp range and maybe not quite having your overlap and keeping the gun parallel at the same distance. A small fender which is sitting vertical is easier to spray consistant then when you are reaching across to the center of a hood and then have to go get the other half. It is also a much larger panel, which means you need the edges to stay wet longer. Maybe slow down a little with your passes keeping about 6 inches away or so, and a slower reducer or when temps are lower. You can slow down on the hood- vertical panels. You really have to be dumping it on to get a run. I can certainly see how you would be getting frustrated and not want to buy even more material. Once you learn on this enamel, you will have much more knowledge for the future. Don't give up, looks like you are getting there and making much improvement. You get this enamel down, switch to base clear urethane on your next project and it probably wll go pretty easily for you. This is how we learn, from our mistakes. Even painting for years we still have a problems from time to time wondering what the hell went wrong. I had a real problem with getting dry spray like I said earlier with nason urethane clear. It was only a bike frame, which isn't a large area, but with that activator it was flashing off so fast I could keep it wet. I ended up having another gun filled with straight reducer so I could hit any dry areas right away. I got away with it, but it would be risky if you were using a metalic. I know you are painting a solid, but if you sprayed reducer on top to try to get rid of a dry area and sprayed too much causing a run, with a single stage metallic, it is likely that the metallic will move and pool, making it darker there. Rereading your post, I am sorry to say, I would repaint to get rid of the dry streaks. If you only put one coat on, thats not going to be enough, even though you have the old paint under there. You need 2-3 new coats for buffing purposes. I am not absoulutely positive with enamel, but most likely the case being it is activated.

Last edited by kenseth17; 07-24-2006 at 04:17 PM.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 07-29-2006, 09:48 PM
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Ok, time for an update.


So I picked up a gallon of slow reducer the other day to try out. The (very knowledgable) lady at the paint shop gave me a few tips, she also said watch the spray pattern getting too wide for the overspray problem, also play with air pressure.

So with that, I gave it another shot today. Before I even got started I found one huge problem with my gun that had been hindering its performance. I didn't even think about pulling the front of it out where the fluid flows through, so I did and what I found was the Urethane 2k primer I had been using had gunked up the fluid flow area inside the gun like crazy. Little soft chunks of primer were jammed in there and it was no wonder I couldn't get good flow out of my gun before. All this despite my thorough flushing of the gun after use.

I decided to give the front clip another run. I'm finding that the hood (being on the truck) while the truck is lifted up on jack stands, is the most difficult pain in the *** thing to paint because it is such a large panel and I have to lean over it without touching from in front of it and work across it thoroughly. Best thing I could do was build a platform in front of it for me to stand on so I could lean over it easier.

In my practice, I found that the best solution for my dry/overspray problem is laying on the coats really thick. If I got my patterns down wet enough, when I came back across below it with the next pattern it would still be wet enough to eat the overspray into it. With this I was able to do much better with my overall finish. I also adjusted the fan down to minimize the overspray on the outside of the pattern. Needless to say I was much happier with my results, which are probably acceptable by my standards, but I still have more issues to improve on.

My freshly cleaned gun was flowing a lot more paint than I was used to and I ended up getting several runs on the sides of the fenders. I had to play with the fluid adjustment at the top of the gun and set it down a little.

The other problem, despite my improvement, is that I still have a slight bit of overspray/dry spotting. This is mostly when I run down a panel about halfway and then see a spot I need to touch a little on and when I hit it, I get that roughness over what I had just sprayed. It's so weird how it flashes so quickly. Although, before I use the word "flash", maybe I should know exactly what "flashing" means? I always assumed it was the stage where it dried enough to have a tacky skin over the top of the liquid paint. I swear to god my paint is in that state where I CANNOT go back over it after it has sit for about 15-20 seconds because it has a skin on it that quickly and the overspray sits on top making it rough, unless I hit the whole area again and by that time, the spot further below is flashed before I get back to it. So it's a frustrating process which i am narrowly beating through wet patterns and careful panel shooting routes.


One last important thing... Is it feasible to be able to wetsand the runs out of the paint? I can't imagine resanding the entire panel and repainting because of a few runs. If this will work, how long do I need to paint before wetsanding the panel after applying fresh paint? Will a polish bring back the gloss even after wetsanding AE single stage?


.
.
.

Ok here are some updated pics. Keep in mind I have only recently shot the front clip... hood, and two front fenders. The door is a mess from previous.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2006, 12:02 PM
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I did the drivers side of the cab and door yesterday. It came out fairly good, not perfect as I would like but I'm hoping I can wetsand the imperfections out after a while. Unfortunately At this point ive run out of paint as well. Man I burnt through that whole gallon fast with the issues I was having. I'm hoping I can get away with maybe 2 quarts to finish the truck off, I don't want to have to spend the cash on another full gallon.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2006, 01:17 PM
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Pictures never do justice, but looks good to me!! Nice shine hellova lot better than your previous attempts.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KNanthrup
I did the drivers side of the cab and door yesterday. It came out fairly good, not perfect as I would like but I'm hoping I can wetsand the imperfections out after a while. Unfortunately At this point ive run out of paint as well. Man I burnt through that whole gallon fast with the issues I was having. I'm hoping I can get away with maybe 2 quarts to finish the truck off, I don't want to have to spend the cash on another full gallon.
Way to stick with it man! It's looking good. The flip side of going through so much paint.....you don't have to worry about your paint being too thin...ha ha! I hope the new AE you buy matches Ok. After reading about your troubles, I'll never do single stage. From what I read BC/CC is the way to go. I hate to say it, but looking back, it may have been cheaper for you too. Although, you gained some great expirience in doing what you did........and, whats that worth?
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2stroketurbo
Way to stick with it man! It's looking good. The flip side of going through so much paint.....you don't have to worry about your paint being too thin...ha ha! I hope the new AE you buy matches Ok. After reading about your troubles, I'll never do single stage. From what I read BC/CC is the way to go. I hate to say it, but looking back, it may have been cheaper for you too. Although, you gained some great expirience in doing what you did........and, whats that worth?
Thanks a lot for your comment. I agree on every level. As far as cost goes... im not sure how it works out. I began this project just to get a decent looking cheap coat on my truck before I leave it at home for college this fall. Single stage AE was my only cost-efficient option.

The single stage stuff is really a pain in the butt trying to get to come out right in just a couple of passes over the panel. I've found that plenty of optimum lighting is very essential, especially for single stage because in my journey i have found that i left dry spots or overspray spots or didn't get the paint thick enough in areas that were not noticable at a different angle. I ended up carrying around a 1500watt lamp to blast at whatever panel I was doing. The solid black color just sucks up the artificial light and doesn't give me good feedback.

The paint is PPG Omni AE, it cost me about $80 for the gallon. I'm not sure what a basic BC/CC setup costs, but my understanding was atleast a few hundred bucks. Despite being extremely difficult for me to spray, I am fairly surprised with how nice the look of the paint is, it came out very deep and glossy and right not im just trying to see the potential behind it after a good wetsand/polish. In a few years the truck will be redone in a nicer BC/CC job, but I need to get through my last 2 years of college first. In the mean time I want protection while looking as good as my budget minded newbie skills can get it.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2006, 04:17 PM
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Don't feel bad kn. I just painted a car this weekend, and things didn't go too great. Lots of heat and humidity. Things went pretty well till I got to the clear. I wanted to get it cleared this weekend while I had time to make sure the base was covered within the window. Had problems with my gun and also not getting dry areas going around the car. All the top surfaces are loaded with dirt specks that I have no Idea where it all came from. Even though I was having problems, I kept going with the clear. I figured its better to have to spot base and repaint a few panels if neccessary then have the base get out of the time window with limited hours to work on during the week. If the base got out of its window then that would mean scuffing it all and spraying more color as well as masking again for the two color scheme. Plus its only going to get hotter Today and tommorrow. Right now I am slowly wetsanding and buffing to see what I can salvage in high 90's weather. This is after spending most of the weekend in a hot and humid garage. As far as material costs, I used both a base and clear that weren't overly expensive. 2 quarts of silver metallic base, 1 quart of black metallic, plus the hardener and reducer for them ran me $161. 2qts of clear and 2qts of activator for it ran me just over $100. I have the same problem with light in my garage and its not real fun not being able to see totally what you are doing. Not having the best conditions and fighting things like the weather, lack of lighting, insects, ect can be a real drag.
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:15 PM
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Just wanted to update and say I'm pretty much done with her.

Thanks to everyone for all your help. I will post more details later, im tired out tonight after all my buffing and polishing... time for some beer!

Anyways, this is how shes looking. more pics to come...
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Old 08-25-2006, 11:10 PM
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It looks fantastic to me. Are you happy with it ? what happened to the dry spots ? The only thing I see wrong is your tail pipes are skewed to the right
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