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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 05:45 PM
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I agree with that, Im still blown away by the new water borne base coats. Ive never used them, and they may be the best thing since the beginning of paint. But the idea of a watter borne automotive paint is just nuts. Watter is good for lot of things, But automotive paint just is not one of them. Im a solvent man. If it don't use a hardener then I don't want to use it.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
DBU does NOT REQUIRE an activator, There is not even one mentioned on the spec sheet for DBU.
The DBU indeed needs its reative reducer "DRR" wich is the activator
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithkustoms
I agree with that, Im still blown away by the new water borne base coats. Ive never used them, and they may be the best thing since the beginning of paint. But the idea of a watter borne automotive paint is just nuts. Watter is good for lot of things, But automotive paint just is not one of them. Im a solvent man. If it don't use a hardener then I don't want to use it.
That sounds like the stories I have heard of when it went from Lacquer to Urethanes, and traditional guns to HVLP's. Better get used to it, because eventually Waterborne will be all there is. I dont know about down in the states, but as of partway through next year, importing new stocks of non-VOC compliant material will not be allowed, and in less than 2 years I believe, purchasing of that non-compliant material will be outlawed.

Waterborne is good stuff. It works, and has for years in Europe. Its just a little bit of a different animal than solvent based. But it is great.
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Old 12-02-2009, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
The DBU indeed needs its reative reducer "DRR" wich is the activator
Good point, I actually forgot about the reducers being active reducers. Does that then mean that DBC and DBU are not lacquer like?

The activator spec'd for DBC is DX57.

Vince
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:27 PM
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Correct they are not lacquer or lacquer like.
They are what replaced lacquer and are designed to not affect or "lift" lacquer or enamels.
DBU and DBC have been a very trusted productive earners for many years and I have been a bit uneasy with the now mandatory change into the waterborne green generation but of course am up for the challenge ...
The dx57 additive for the DBC is kinda a misleading evil that is supposed to make DBC act like DBU but in this reporters opinion can be skipped if temps are at 70 and using the DT870 reducer ..




As mentioned the waterborne line I have decided will work best for my clients/conditions is gonna be PPG's Envirobase along with the newest workable/buffable clear called EnvirobaseEC700 in the blue can. I have shot some and can say it is a very different animal. It's base over spray seems to fly a couple feet and then just fall on the floor like you would think water would.
The base covers in 2-4 passes using way less material. The clear goes on with a light pass then one minute flash then ONE full on wet coat and that's it. No more 15 minutes then another coat then 15 minutes till a final coat. The idea is less time spraying means less time heating a booth,less time running the compressor,less time warming the globe. .
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithkustoms
can I use the Nason urethane clear over the PPG?
yes
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Old 12-04-2009, 12:28 AM
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Im going to have to try that Envirobase clear. It's not really a waterborne product though is it, more just a clear for use with the Waterborne line-up?
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:32 AM
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Today we could use a little globe warming.

Vince
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
Good point, I actually forgot about the reducers being active reducers. Does that then mean that DBC and DBU are not lacquer like?

The activator spec'd for DBC is DX57.

Vince
Remember dbc does not require an activator. Dbu contains isocyanates in its reactive reducer. I am by no means a chemist, but believe with the reaction of the acrylic and isocyanates, you are now creating some crosslinking and if it creates a urethane chain, could be considered a urethane.

I just got an old can of dbc up from the basement. It said acrylic resin, and said nothing about polyester. Paint manufacturers aren't very forthcoming on whats all in there paints, not like the average painter like me could really understand the chemistry anyways.

And it seems like a paint company can call their paint whatever they want, lacquer, enamel, urethane enamel, polyurethane enamel, or simply urethane or polyurethane. If its any consulation, I was able to wipe off some of the 3 year paint drippage off the side of the can to be able to read it with a bit of urethane reducer without affecting the underlying ink too much. I don't know if there was any reducer in it from adding left over or not, but really don't believe it would make any difference, as I doubt dt reducer contains any iso's.

This is all just how I take it, everything could be wrong, or some could be wrong. For the real skinny would require talking to a chemist that you can actually understand.

I believe anything from a lacquer to a urethane can be made from polyester or acrylic resins. And believe basecoat has better propertys then lacquers of old, basecoat has some flexability and with todays basecoats and clear urethanes you don't see to many using flex additives as they really aren't needed.
Did a lot of reading and I still don't totally understand it.

Quote:
A lacquer is simply a coating composition based on synthetic thermoplastic film-forming material dissolved in a votile solvent (VOC's) and dried primarily by solvent evaporation. Typical lacquers include those based on nitrocellulose, other cellulose derivatives, vinyl resins, acrylic resins, etc.
And a urethane is created when a urethane link is created by reacting an isocyanate with monomer containing alcohol (polyester resins are made from glycol alcohols)

Quote:
The urethane is formed by the reaction of the hydroxyl from the polyether or polyester polyol with a suitable
diisocyanate. The diisocyanate continues to react with another polyol’s hydroxyl group, leading to chain extension
and molecular weight build. The link thus formed is called a urethane link
To further complicate the description, acrylic polyol can be used, either as the base backbone material or as mixtures
with the polyether and polyester polyols. The resulting adhesives acquire some of the properties of acrylic
chemistry and can be called acrylic urethane, polyester-acrylic urethane or polyether-acrylic urethane.
I still don't think an activated base is going to be the same thing as far as amount of crosslinking occuring and durability of the final product as a urethane clear or single stage, and believe less isocyanate is used, just some to create crosslinking and increase intercoat adhesion, and its going to be the weakest part of a system. I don't have anything finished in dbu to test and any i had is gone except a hardened up can of reactive reducer, I haven't used any dbu in 15 years. Believe activating base, there will be some crosslinking, and the activated base will eventually harden up inside the can (so shouldn't pour back activated base with unmixed stuff) But its no secret to most painters that activating your base will increase its durability, repairablity, and intercoat adhesion, and to offer a lifetime paint warrenty shops have to activate the basecoat. You can look at what barry k says about base in this thread, specially page 2.
http://spi.forumup.org/viewtopic.php?t=2817&

I think the reason dbu, which is an earlier basecoat system, uses activated reducer is they were experiencing some troubles with clear to base adhesion, and by adding isocyanate and requireing using the reactive reducer eliminated the problem. Could be wrong here too, but its what sticks in my head for some reason.
Again just rambling, and giving my thoughts and sure I could be wrong. Lacquer has become such a dirty word, that when someone mentions a basecoat being anything near lacquer based and it creates a stir. I think its all moot anyways. PPG DBU and DBC I think we both would agree are good bases, and we should concentrate on figuring out how to use the products correctly and what works best for us, and probably best to leave the chemistry part to the chemists.

Last edited by kenseth17; 12-05-2009 at 04:17 PM.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2009, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithkustoms
I read that at the top of the Deltron tech sheet. I did forget to mention it is the DBC Not the I. So on the tech seet for the base coat when it talks about high gloss it is ment after the clear coat? correct?

Any idea why it says "This technology is an easy-to-use as a one or two-component solvent-borne technology" ? Has Deltron EVER made a high gloss single stage ? I have no idea how old this paint is, I do know it still looks good, and the can is in good shape.

I also forgot to ask about reducer, Ive always herd that PPG paint is very picky about its reducers meaning no other reducer can be used but the deltron. Is this true as well?

And I was just reading more about the Deltron, when I noticed it says "to clear coat in 20mins, but after 24hrs it must be sanded and re-coated with the base before clear coat" Is this a bonding thing, Or if I deside to let the base cure before clear will it raise up on me? I dont plan to wait 24hrs, just geting the feel for the new to me paint.

thanks for the fast reply!
I don't know, but would say any quality urethane reducer if not a special reactive type, or from a lower line like omni could be used. Many use spi urethane reducer in ppg dbc (believe its is sort of modeled after the ppg dt reducers) and I use them in many different bases as well. Just used spi reducer in prospray base the last 3 cars I've shot. Your chromabase on the other hand, stick with the appropriate dupont basemaker, as there are more then just solvents in there.

Totally a bonding thing, and times may be conservative to cover there butt and depend on temps, but must apply clear over base within a certain time, or you lose chemical adhesion between the base and clear. But that said, some graphics guys who have to lay out a lot of graphics have said they have exceded the stated times without issues, but I prefer to stay within the times in the p sheets and not take the risk. Very seldom it becomes an issue, and if running out of time, if you can manage to lay on another coat of base or an intercoat clear before that time has expired, you have a 24 hour window again before you have to start laying clearcoat.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2009, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
Remember dbc does not require an activator
Never said it did, I stated the requirements for when it is required, but just DBC by itself does not require it.

My quote in post #9:
Quote:
The PPG tech sheet TB005 for DX75 activator says it MAY be used with DBC. It must be used for tri-coat colors or applied over NCS sealer or when spraying DBC as SpectrFlame. or Flamboyance, Chrystal Pearls, Radiance II, or applying DBC as Harlequin

Vince
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:25 AM
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Help with ppg

I have sprayed ppg for years and have had to use other brands of clear (cci, sherwin willums,ect) in a pinch and have had no problems, but I agree with you that I to would wait at least an hour or even over night, make sure you tack before clearing of course. I never use activator in the base with any brand of paint that I have used in the past. If you are looking for a clear that is very user friendly and have the same results at half the cost.When ppg first came out with Omni I tried it on my truck first and had great success with it.I build show cars only and have been able to do anything with it. Like I said at half the price. I had applied a gallon and a half of clear wet sanded , applied another gallon and a half then wet sanded and polished to a mirror finish.I all so airbrush and a most of that needs lots of clear to be able to wet sand the hard edges out.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2009, 11:42 AM
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Adhesion, chip resistance, and metallic control of base coat will increase if 1-2oz. of the activator to be used for the clear is added to the ready-to-spray base. I always do this, and always will, unless the manufacturer specifically warns against it (which I have never seen).

DBC in particular seems to become very brittle when activator is not used in the base coat. In areas where stone chips are a problem, this tendency to become brittle can result in a front end that looks horrible in just a couple of years.
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:35 PM
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I have herd of that crashtech but was warned against it for there is more opportunity of chemical reaction if you are spraying over existing paint. I have never had a problem with adhesion but would try it for a stronger paint, the stronger the better right. Thanks I will revisit this idea and try it on some smaller jobs to start with.
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Old 12-07-2009, 07:14 AM
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Chip resistance has more to do with your clear coat than anything else. Some clears cure as hard as concrete and some almost remain pliable.

Vince
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