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smithkustoms 12-01-2009 12:50 AM

Help with PPG Deltron base coat paint and clear coat Please
 
OK I do paint and body work for a living from my home garage. Today I had a customer come in with a gallon of "steel blue metallic" PPG Deltron 2000 base-coat and activator, That they relay relay want sprayed. Trust me I did everything i could to talk them out. I relay need to job for Christmas money and figure I spray about anything.. I 99% of the time spray DuPont paints, chromabase, or nason ful-base and ful-thane. To be honest this is my first time using PPG paint.

I was able to get the data sheet on line form PPG's web site and the spray seems easy enough. But I cant find out what type of paint the deltron 2000 is. Is it a urethane, acrylic enamel, lacquer or etc. ? The strange part that has me stumped. The data sheet and back side of the can, says "base coat" in many places, But will also brag about "High-gloss and distinctiveness of image"
And it says " The technology is an easy-to-use as a one or two-component solvent-borne technology"

Does that mean it can be used with or with out the activator? OR With or with out clear coat? Ive never seen a paint more confusing before. Here I am about to paint this car, And I don't have a clue if this paint is bc/cc or single stage!

Next question is, I don't believe the owners are going to be happy when I tell them the deltron clear coat is $250. Are they another clear coat that can be sprayed over the Deltron 2000 base coat? I have a fresh gallon of nason urethane select clear and activator I need to use, can I use the Nason urethane clear over the PPG?

Don't worry, Normally I would NEVER even think about mixing paint brands, But in this case, Ive talked to the owners and they asked me to find the cheapest route to use the deltron base. They where going to paint the car their self, and from what I understand bought their paint on a lay-a-way type deal. when they had the money, they bought one component. they said they spent $400 on the base alone. They believe the base is the best base coat in the world, even tho I told them it don't matter if you use the best base, the base-coat & clearcoat will only hold as good as the primer. They wont listen nor do they care. If I dont do it, someone else will. Not my proud moment to introduce my self to this seemingly nice forum.

The Nason clear has held up great for me in the past, And If I can use what I have, I wont need to charge them as much.

:( please don't lecture me on the importance of not mixing paint brands or the fact that I even let myself take a job like this. I don't want to hear about how I should have handled things, Im well aware of my mistakes. :thumbup: I just want the facts of the PPG deltron please :spank:

Countilaw 12-01-2009 12:59 AM

Here the information your require:

PPG’s Deltron® 2000 (DBC) Basecoat is a
state-of-the-art, premium quality
basecoat/clearcoat system designed to
reproduce the hi-tech O.E.M. finishes
found on today’s import and domestic
vehicles.
Deltron® 2000 (DBI) Interior Color was
developed for interior and underhood
color matching purposes. It is mixed
directly from the Deltron® Mixing Service.
DBI must be reduced with the
appropriate DT Reducer and does not
require clearcoating.

Please note that one is "DBC" and the other is "DBI"


The DBI is an interior paint. The DBC is "Deltron Base Coat" it requires clear coat.

Both require Activator and a Reducer.

Frank Cox
Cox Custom Cars

smithkustoms 12-01-2009 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countilaw
Here the information your require:

I read that at the top of the Deltron tech sheet. I did forget to mention it is the DBC Not the I. So on the tech seet for the base coat when it talks about high gloss it is ment after the clear coat? correct?

Any idea why it says "This technology is an easy-to-use as a one or two-component solvent-borne technology" ? Has Deltron EVER made a high gloss single stage ? I have no idea how old this paint is, I do know it still looks good, and the can is in good shape.

I also forgot to ask about reducer, Ive always herd that PPG paint is very picky about its reducers meaning no other reducer can be used but the deltron. Is this true as well?

And I was just reading more about the Deltron, when I noticed it says "to clear coat in 20mins, but after 24hrs it must be sanded and re-coated with the base before clear coat" Is this a bonding thing, Or if I deside to let the base cure before clear will it raise up on me? I dont plan to wait 24hrs, just geting the feel for the new to me paint.

thanks for the fast reply!

302 Z28 12-01-2009 07:28 AM

I used PPG Deltron on my 34 and I loved it, it was very easy to use. I did not use activator on the base coat, only in the clear. PPG Deltron is urethane, PPG does make a single stage but the name escapes me at the moment. If all they gave you was the base you do not have enough to complete the job. You must clear coat it with an activated clear.

For best results it is ALWAY advisable to use the PPG reducers with PPG Deltron bases. That is true for any paint IMHO, I would never mix bands of paint and reducers that is just asking for trouble. PPG has spent tons of money engineering their entire system to work together.

The re-coat window is a suggestion. Just about any base will require a scuff and reapplication of base after 24 hours to obtain the proper adhesion with clear

Vince

kenseth17 12-01-2009 07:17 PM

Its a polyester (basically lacquer), just like chromabase. I've shot both, chromabase in the shops I've worked in years back, and always went down and picked up ppg if I was doing something on the side at home. I prefer ppg dbc over dupont chromabase. Its seems just a little more user friendly to me, as well as coverage a bit better. Plus the ppg uses no stupid basemaker, so any quality urethane reducer can be used to reduce it. Haven't shot chromabase in quite a long time, and been a couple years since I shot dbc, as I've found some good products that ain't so dang pricey as the majors.

Dbc would be basecoat, I believe they also call it 2000, which is most likely what you have and will need to be cleared.
PPGs other base is dbu, but that one is like chromabase, and it uses a special reactive reducer. PPG's single stage in the deltron line would be called dcc-concept

It shouldn't be too much different then shooting chromabase, and most colors should cover pretty well in 2 to 3 coats-not always the case but usually.
You dbc base doesn't have to be activated. From what I remember it mixes 1 part paint to 1 part dt reducer (If you don't want to purchase the dt reducer, any urethane reducer from a good line should work-not low line omni or nason crapola, nor basemaker since its not ordinary reducer).
I think it has the option of activating also-been awhile since I looked at the product data sheet on dbc. Not a bad idea at all to activate it for better durability and repairability. If you don't want to buy ppg's activator, you could instead add a capfulls worth of the hardener from the clear your using per mixed quart of base (don't pour base thats been activated back into the can with unmixed).

Should be okay to use your nason select clearcoat over it. Since its a polyester base, should be able to clearcoat over it in reasonable amount of time, but I always like to let my base sit at least an hour before putting on clear.

302 Z28 12-01-2009 07:22 PM

DBC is lacquer? Did I read that right? :nono: :nono:

Vince

kenseth17 12-01-2009 07:31 PM

The basecoat is, well a polyester, but believe is basically a lacquer, would have to talk to a chemist on that though. Base is always the weakest part of your paint system. A urethane has to be activated to cure- dbc basecoat using activator is optional. Take a rag of lacquer thinner to dbc base without clear on it, and see what happens, even a day later. It will take it right off, heck wax and grease remover will fresh. A urethane wouldn't be phazed that easily after a day of sitting.
But I think its better to use a polyester basecoat then an enamel, all your cheap ones are enamel, omni, nason, ect.

The Concept, 2021, ect clearcoats though, of course are urethane based.

302 Z28 12-01-2009 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenseth17
The basecoat is, well a polyester, but believe is basically a lacquer, would have to talk to a chemist on that though. Base is always the weakest part of your paint system. A urethane has to be activated to cure- dbc basecoat using activator is optional
But better to use a polyester basecoat then an enamel, all your cheap ones are enamel, omni, nason, ect.

The Concept, 2021, ect clearcoats though, of course are urethane based.

I can assure you that both DBU and DBC are urethane. I used DBU on my 34 and it definitely was not polyester.

Vince

302 Z28 12-01-2009 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countilaw

Both require Activator and a Reducer.

Frank Cox
Cox Custom Cars

DBU does NOT REQUIRE an activator, There is not even one mentioned on the spec sheet for DBU. I sprayed three gallons of DBU on my 34 and did not use an activator on the base. It is optional for DBC unless it is sprayed in any of the below applications. .

The PPG tech sheet TB005 for DX75 activator says it MAY be used with DBC. It must be used for tri-coat colors or applied over NCS sealer or when spraying DBC as SpectrFlame. or Flamboyance, Chrystal Pearls, Radiance II, or applying DBC as Harlequin

Vince

mitmaks 12-01-2009 08:45 PM

PPG base/clear systems.
Base coat does not need activator, however nothing will happen if you do put it in. I've experimented with it a bit. Clear coat does require activator and I usually shoot it within 1/2 hr after spraying last base coat, as manufacturer suggests. I'd follow spec sheets to the point and you won't have a problem. I do however put more reducer in clear to lay it out smooth.

smithkustoms 12-01-2009 08:57 PM

I ordered the reducer and activator today, I will be using PPG Deltron products in the base coat. But plan to use another brand of clear, Hopefully the nason select-clear. I ordered a gallon of DT870 reducer and Dx57 activator.
The mix ratio of the Deltron is 1:1 and 5% activator. The best I can figure, I should use 6.4oz of activator per gallon, Correct? The 5% is for 1 gallon, Not the 2 gallons it makes after the mix, correct?


Im now excited to see how well it sprays vs Chroma-base. Price is about the same, I have to pay a bit more for the PPG because my paint shop don't sell PPG, so I had to order it. But given my 15% discount for dupont, it is about the same in price.

Anyone know for sure if I can use the nasson clear over the Deltron with activator without issues?

And If I can, I need a little advice. Normally when I spray bc/cc I like to clear coat in approx 1-hour depending on the temp & weather, The Deltron says 20mins -to 24hrs. Im alittle scared to spray another brand of clear when the base is fresh. I was thinking I would let it cure out a bit before I spray the clear, maybe 3-4 hours.
I figure By then with the activator, the base should be dry to the touch. And I will have less of a chance of the paint lifting, or causing a bad chemical reaction. What do you think? How long would you wait before spray a clear coat of another brand?

This is why I don't ever mix paints, In my younger days I was a little cocky and thought I could spray everything. I got a hold of some cheap $30/gal ebay acrylic enamel, and used left over limco AE reducer/hardener. First 3 coats went down ok, I thought I was having an issue with my spray gun, but they leveled out OK. I waited about 25-mins to spray my 4th and final coat I got 1/2 done and ran out of mixed paint. I was out of the limco AE reducer, And used some 5-star AE reducer in its place. SO I rushed to get the paint mixed so I could finish out the 4th coat with out any dry spots. I got it finished in time, And it looked good....I went outside to smoke. & went back in the booth after about 10mins and every where I sprayed with the 5-star reducer, Had lifted up BAD. It was so bad that I could watch the blisters swell and bust.. I ended up having to strip the whole car, and spray it with a sealer and primer to get paint to stick back to it. cost me a small fortune and two extra weeks of my time. All because I wanted to save a few bucks by using left over products. I said then I would NEVER mix paint brands again!


Since then I have never mixed two chemicals together at once like that, I have however sprayed single stage paints and a few days to weeks later sprayed another brand/type of clear without any issues.

smithkustoms 12-01-2009 09:19 PM

Oh I have one more question: The tech sheet does not have an Approx coverage per gallon, Approx how many sq feet does one gallon of deltron b/c cover (two gallons mixed 1:1)
thanks!

Oh and anyone know anything about TCPglobel.com line of paints? Restoration shop, and Kustom shop? According to them, they offer the same type of bc/cc as the deltron. They have a cross over sheet that tells what their paint compare to, and they say theirs compares to Deltron 2000. (what I have)

Their clear coat is $124/kit Not bad, But how good is it? Better or worse then the nason clear coat?

BMM 12-01-2009 09:55 PM

302 Z28, thanks for supplying the correct information ;)

Coverage depends alot on the colour itself, and how you spray. Usually 3-4 coats including a drop coat provides proper hiding, but always do a spray out card to confirm. Nothing worse than pulling it out in the sun and seeing some dark spots :eek: .

2 gallons RFU should be plenty to do a complete.

302 Z28 12-02-2009 07:05 AM

Dittos for Southern Polyurethanes clear.

Vince

kenseth17 12-02-2009 04:51 PM

Okay, I don't know who the source is on this, supposedly someone from basf chemical (diamont paint ect), but since there was disagreement and no chemists have responded, I tried a search. And made my head spin in the process, which trying to understand chemistry does.

Quote:

The 1960’s saw the first use of isocyanate crosslinkers in refinish. However, it was not until the late 1970’s
that isocyanate use began to accelerate to where it has become a major component of topcoat and primer
lines today. The growth was spurred by the advent of the base coat/clear coat process, in which the clear
coat is a 2-component (2K) urethane. Most repairs today are done with base coat/clear coat systems. The
automotive base coat of today is essentially a lacquer. The most popular resin components are acrylic,
polyester and cellulose acetate butyrate. Solvent borne base coat dominates, but water borne dispersion
technology is making inroads. The majority of primer compositions today are either 2K urethanes or
epoxy/polyamides. The epoxy systems distinguish themselves by superior adhesion, corrosion protection
and pot life. The urethanes have advantages in fast dry time and better sanding characteristics
http://www.radtech-europe.com/files_...permay2004.pdf




I swear Barry K had said even said once in the past that cab basecoats are basically a lacquer, but don't quote me on that. All DBC's propertys want to tell me it is not a urethane. Really fast dry, 50 percent solvent added and lays down flat pretty easy, activator not required, Will dry without adding an activator, affected if wiped down with solvent.

Urethanes as far as I know, Do require use of an activator, and in fact will never dry without one and may not if incorrect amount is not used, would always fingerprint. No way when you wanted to sand out some trash, could you do it in about half an hour.

Most painters I think would agree that the weakest part of a refinish system today is going to be the basecoat.


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