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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-15-2008, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2k600f4
Purchased in car with about 50-100 miles on it that had a freshly professionally rebuilt 383. I drove it home 300 miles, dumped oil put new filter and quaker state 10W30 (3/08). I drove it approx 200 miles in the last 6 months (busy fixing little things); and it is burning oil some oil. Pulled a plug, it is black and wet and I get lots of gray smoke with black specks all over my bumper and garage floor; lots of black soot in tailpipes. Oil was low when changed recently, put in again quaker state 10W30. I figured the rings were not seated yet, but after talking to others they informed me they should of seated already….I thought somebody could give me some insight on this board. I have not began to trouble shoot (compression test, leak down test etc); I don’t have the tools but I am willing to get them. Any help would greatly be appreciated. The following is what I know about the engine build.

All new parts which include the following (this is all I know)

Summit Cam sum-1106
Chrom moly +100 push rods
Holley 4160 750 Carb
Procomp Aluminum Heads 190cc/64cc
Performance products 52026 crosswind intake
New Eagle bottom end; externally balanced (.040 overbore, Flat top +5cc pistons)
Felpro 1003 head gaskets
Felpro 1205 intake gasket

Thanks.
fuel pump leaking fuel into the block, not on the ground. holley carb ...power valve blown during startup by pumping the throttle, not the acc.pump leaks fuel in the vacumn port for the power valve and the power valve stays open all the time and that is fuel/oil delutement. gas does not seal the rings. sysmtom. oil gets black in a few days...that is powdered metal....black oil also it starts hard cause' the float bowldrainsinto the rngine/oil/intake manifold...on the plugs, etc.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-15-2008, 06:42 PM
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y2k600f4,
Your missing my point. I don't know where the oil is coming from, may be rings
may not. There are lots of places to get oil in the engine.

My point is it's spitting carbon out the exahust, that same gunk is fouling the
rings. A leak down is in order, but before I'd jump to conclusions, I'd put a good
set of plugs in it and put some heat in the cylinders, run the RPM up several
times (with a load) and give the rings a chance to seat before pulling it apart.

adams specialty engs and I are thinking along the same lines.

Last edited by automotive breath; 09-15-2008 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 09-15-2008, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
adams specialty engs and I are thinking along the same lines.
I appreciate the info and suggestions !!! I don't think I missed the point (however maybe I had a poor choice of reply's ?) and I know noone really knows about where the oil is coming from but I really appreciate the informative info on the possibility of a fuel problem not allowing the rings to seat properly (if that is a problem); gives me some where to start. I will take your advice and swap out the plugs and get some heat and load on the engine. In the meantime I am going to pick up a leak down tester and see where that takes me. Thanks for expanding on the potential problem. I am no way in a rush to tear into the engine, and I hope that is not what I need to do .
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:09 PM
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Update

Ran the engine to temp....pulled plugs (took a while due to headers) and did a quick compression test (going to do again). All cylinders are ~190 PSI ( a few were a little higher). Also pulled the PVC and I am getting smoke coming out (same as exhaust). After I pulled plugs (all were black, burnt and oily) I noticed AT LEAST 1 cylinder smoke was coming out of the spark plug hole. Also all holes had oily residue shooting and leaking out (normal ?). Stay tuned....next is leak down test.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2008, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDLuck
I am thinking this is a small block chevy? This is a common problem that happens with some intakes and gasket not being matched properly.If the block has been decked or the wrong port gasket used ,there will be a vacuum leak in the valley and oil will be sucked into the intake and coat the spark plugs much like bad valve guides. Pull intake and see if the cylinder head ports are oily.
What SD said ^^

And... IF your valve covers are not baffled under the PCV, this will suck all kinds of oil in. Look down into the PCV grommet. You should NOT be able to see any part of the valve train.
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
What SD said ^^

And... IF your valve covers are not baffled under the PCV, this will suck all kinds of oil in. Look down into the PCV grommet. You should NOT be able to see any part of the valve train.
Thanks C-10 !! I am by no means an engine builder (I try and do everything myself: bodywork, drivetrain installs, etc) but when it comes to internal troubleshooting I have found that this forum is great; and I could not do it without you and all the others help !!! I did read about PVC problems....mine is NOT baffled. Pulled PVC off and looked in tube and PVC and their is no signs of oil. Contacted the engine builder (out of state) and advised me first to do a compression test (if that showed something than do leak down test); also insured me the cylinders were honed correctly for the moly rings. However he did believe it was a good possibility it is an intake gasket leaking and pulling oil out of the lifter valley; that the heads on the engine have a raised intake port, and sometimes you do have gasket sealing problem.

I did check withtthe intake manufacturer's instructions and it looks like the proper felpro 1205 was used (recipt). Just want to make sure it is the intake before I pull it....but as of now, that is what it looks like.
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:59 PM
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Update

compression test showed 190 PSI in each cylinder

Just pulled intake....no oil in intake ports

PVC not sucking oil

Anybody know the most likely culprit for oil burning ?

Thanks.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-26-2008, 11:24 PM
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Although you didn't see oil in PCV when you checked, it would be a good idea to get baffles in those valvecovers anyways, so as to limit the possibility of it happening. Beyond that, it could be MANY different things that can cause blowby and/or consumption. With 190psi comp.readings, you've obviously got a decent compression ratio in that mill, (at least during cranking test), and that contributes to possibility of blowby during break-in. From what I saw you've now got AROUND 500 total miles on it? Perhaps it might be best, for now, to put fresh plugs (of proper heatrange, of course) in it, verify all ignition and carb. settings are correct, recheck for any "hidden" vacuum leaks, and run it a bit more mileage under varying loads, (so as to be certain that the rings have had every possibility to seat completely). If situation continues on beyond another 200-300 miles additional runtime, THEN dig in further. AT least you'll get to have some driver seat time in the interem. You might also check related posts/threads in the knowledge base and in this (engine section) of forum as well, for perspective on other rodders' similar experiences. Good luck with it all. -Jim
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Old 09-27-2008, 10:22 AM
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Although you didn't see oil in PCV when you checked, it would be a good idea to get baffles in those valvecovers anyways, so as to limit the possibility of it happening. Beyond that, it could be MANY different things that can cause blowby and/or consumption. With 190psi comp.readings, you've obviously got a decent compression ratio in that mill, (at least during cranking test), and that contributes to possibility of blowby during break-in. From what I saw you've now got AROUND 500 total miles on it? Perhaps it might be best, for now, to put fresh plugs (of proper heatrange, of course) in it, verify all ignition and carb. settings are correct, recheck for any "hidden" vacuum leaks, and run it a bit more mileage under varying loads, (so as to be certain that the rings have had every possibility to seat completely). If situation continues on beyond another 200-300 miles additional runtime, THEN dig in further. AT least you'll get to have some driver seat time in the interem. You might also check related posts/threads in the knowledge base and in this (engine section) of forum as well, for perspective on other rodders' similar experiences. Good luck with it all. -Jim
Thanks Jim....I will take your advice and reassemble, check tune and drive for a while; don't want to tear into the heads unless I know that it is the problem.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2008, 12:26 PM
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As mentioned on your other thread, change oil and filter again. Take a sniiff of the oil you drained and see if it has a "fuel smell" to it. If you've been running somewhat rich,(either from carb settings or characteristics of cam at lower rev's), oil may be getting thinned a bit with unburnt fuel, which will speedup the blowby process, if indeed that is what's occuring. When you are sure that everything is setup correctly and fresh plugs of correct heatrange are in place, take it out and try to spend some time putting it under load in the 2500-4500rpm range and keep a close eye on the oil consumption over the course of time. Also, if not already addressed, get some baffles on those valvecovers, because IF there is indeed some blowby occurring (due to rings not being fully seated in), this will help to slow it. I hope you get resolution to this issue through the processes and ideas everyone is offering, and fix turns out to be an easy one. -Jim.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2k600f4
compression test showed 190 PSI in each cylinder

Just pulled intake....no oil in intake ports

PVC not sucking oil

Anybody know the most likely culprit for oil burning ?

Thanks.
Good compression in and of itself does not mean oil isn't getting around the rings. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

The most frequent loss of oil into the combustion chamber is either down the valve guides (intake usually) or around the rings. Other choices run from damaged pistons or cylinder walls, an intake vacuum leak connecting the valley area to the intake ports. Blown head gasket. Most of these failures tend to be one or two cylinders not all. Breather issues especially where PVC or vacuum extraction is concerned will most often show up in all cylinders. Communication between the crankcase and the fuel pump could provide a source of oil getting into the fuel supply, this would show in all cylinders also, but the typical failure that communicates between the pump and crankcase put fuel into the crankcase rather than oil into the fuel. Still when we can't find the cause, you've got to consider the unlikely sources as well. Along that line is also the though that oil has been put into the fuel in the tank.

Back to guides, a very common source of oil into the combustion chamber, after all what you see as manifold vacuum is a force trying to fill the engine with what ever it can get to balance internal pressures with the atmosphere. It will take air from whereever it can get it. From the carb it comes with fuel, around the valve guides it comes with oil. This is why clearances between stem and guide are important, so is concentricity, and seal quality.

Rings get into orientation, a ring especially the second ring installed upside down will hold compression, but will pump oil into the combustion chamber with every stroke of the piston. Rings with too much or too little vertical clearance in their lands will do the same, as will rings riding in dirty or miss machined lands such that the ring cannot make a seal with the top or bottom of the land. While we worry end gap to death, how many guys checked land to ring clearance, flatness, and cleanliness. This gets into the correct wall finish for the type ring. A course finish of about 250 - 300 is used for chrome rings. This will seat a hard surface of a chrome ring, if this is used for a moly filled ring it will sand the finish off the ring. For a moly ring you want a 400 - 600 finish for a wide ring and 600 -1200 for a narrow ring. If you put a chrome ring against this surface it will skate forever, never making an oil tight seal. I'm talking compression rings here, in all cases a stainless steel or untreated cast oil ring works fine. It's the first and second ring that can be a problem when miss-matched against wall finish.

Leaping back to intake to valley sealing, when heads are milled and or the block is decked, the heads are lowered and brought closer together in relation to the intake manifold. A cut on either surface of about .020 inch is about all that can be tolerated without also trimming the bottom and sides of the manifold. Felpro also sells a range of gasket thicknesses that can be useful in adjusting these dimensions as well.

Bogie
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2008, 12:13 PM
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You need to do the leak down test and stop guessing.
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:45 AM
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Thanks everyone for the suggestions....I will try and implement all of them !!!!!

I was just thinking that I have been running 10W30 the last 200 miles or so; when the oil blow-by has really been noticed. I am going to switch to a heavier weight (10W40) or Rotella T 15W40 (due to at least having some higher levels of ZDDP for the flat tappet cam). This thinner oil in conjuction with the rings POSSIBLY not 100% being sealed could be the reason for the blow-by (??? Just taking a guess). Any comments would be appreciated.

Also one pic of the intake ports (below) showing them to be clean after the intake removal.

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Old 10-02-2008, 07:13 PM
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Update: Wet Compression test

Just had time to finish installing the intake and decided to do another compression test (wet/dry). Did 6 cylinders so far and what I am seeing is a 15PSI increase after I squirt some oil in the cylinders. Looks like the rings have not seated and according to others if they have not after 600 miles (plasma moly) they probably never will

I am going to finish up the other 2 cylinders than do a leak down test before I put everything back together. Don't know what to do if it is the rings....really don't want to pull the engine after 600 miles due to various reasons including $$.

Also called the engine kit manufacturer (eagle) tech support and their "opinion" was rings or valve seals that the rings (perfect circle) should of seated already. Also they said the wet/dry numbers were normal (within 10%) and that it is expected to get better compression with oil in the cylinders and that the top ring (compression) won't completely sea unless it has oil; that was strange since what I have read said different (that the wet/dry numbers should be almost the same).

Last edited by y2k600f4; 10-03-2008 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 10-02-2008, 09:04 PM
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So long as you have addressed the other possibilities, (Intake, PCV, Baffles/Breather,Fuel "washdown", etc), then I'd say to give them rings a bit more time. Sometimes a little "hard use" can go a long ways toward helping rings to set. At worst, you'll at least get a bit more FUN out of that before possibly having to yank the engine. Perhaps those stubborn rings are just "late bloomers". I'm sure sorry to hear that it's being such a p.i.t.a. for you, but if the engine builder is aware of your ongoing difficulties in this mill, (hopefully you've kept him/them as well informed as you have the people on this forum), then perhaps you can begin discussing some options with the builder that would make things right on all accounts. Let's all hope for your sake that it doesn't come down to that, as that would obviously be worst-case scenario. Please continue to post the results of your test-findings, and be sure to stay in ongoing communication with the engine builder. You should make certain they are aware of the great lengths you've already gone to on your own to isolate, identify, and resolve this problem. You've gone above and beyond the norm of what most people would have, (to try and resolve this yourself), and you should be very proud of that alone! -Jim.
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