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Old 09-18-2011, 11:01 AM
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Help for tune up 400 Pontiac

Hello people.

I live in Germany and I restore a 77 Trans Am with 400cui Pontiac engine. It is a complete frame off resto and there was a lot of sheet metal work to do . But it is almost done and now i can focus on the technical things. The axles are in and before i will put on the front fenders i want to mount the engine&transmission unit. Thats the point. It don`t think the engine runs properly because some german specialist has diffent types of heads mounted. The heads are both 6X but one is a small size (#4 for 350cui engines) combustion chamber and the other a mid-size (#8 for 400cui engines). This is reason enough for me to do something good for the engine

I want to modify the engine but im not sure with which components. I want to keep the 400cui bloc. All the parts are from classic-industries.com. Let me tell you my whishlist.

1. Aluminium heads, Edelbrock 72cc rpm heads #E60599
2. Camshaft, lifters, springs, timing chain from Comp Cams Extreme Energy #222064D or #222065D I`m not sure which RPM range the best for the engine is
3. Push Rod set 5/16“ 66890C in connection with
4. Roller Rockers 3/8“ #33907C
5. High performance oil pump #10540
6. fine balanced original crankshaft
7. pistons original?
8. Piston rods original?
9. Carburetor Edelbrock 750cfm #E1411 or original rochester quadrajet 4bbl
10. Intake manifold edelbrock RPM #E7156 , the problem is I want to keep the shacker Scoop!

What du you think about theese items and will the engine runs fast with theese components?
Please let me now your competently opinion.

Kind regards

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Old 09-18-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chev8y
Let me tell you my whishlist.

1. Aluminium heads, Edelbrock 72cc rpm heads #E60599
2. Camshaft, lifters, springs, timing chain from Comp Cams Extreme Energy #222064D or #222065D I`m not sure which RPM range the best for the engine is
3. Push Rod set 5/16“ 66890C in connection with
4. Roller Rockers 3/8“ #33907C
5. High performance oil pump #10540
6. fine balanced original crankshaft
7. pistons original?
8. Piston rods original?
9. Carburetor Edelbrock 750cfm #E1411 or original rochester quadrajet 4bbl
10. Intake manifold edelbrock RPM #E7156 , the problem is I want to keep the shacker Scoop!
1. I don't know what petrol that you can get, but 72cc heads may yield too high of compression unless You use dished pistons.
2. Without knowing your planned usage and gear ratio, It would be difficult to recommend a camshaft.
3. Pushrods should be chosen after engine is assembled and checked for length needed.
4. With anything other than a stock cam, you will need an adjustable valve train, so 7/16 studs and posi locks are in order.
5 & 6. should be okay.
7. The cast pistons will probably be okay for a street car, but if you have to order pistons anyway, get forged. The lighter the better.
8. Same deal. Forged rods are good for peace of mind.
9. The Q-Jet is a very good carburator.
10. You won't be able to keep the shaker with the Performer RPM. Possibly with the Performer, but the factory manifold will perform as good, if not better.

Bill
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Old 09-18-2011, 01:32 PM
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Thanks for help Bill.

1. I can get here 98ROZ legal fuel. Is that enough for the compression?

2. I have a TH350 with locked rear axle. I have to look up the ratio in my garage tomorrow. I want to keep an almost proper idle but good power in higher rpm`s. I used the RPM cam in my 80' 350 camaro and it was fine.

3. Ok then i have to measure them. But the stock ones could be work too?!
4. Thank you for advice. Then i have to search the parts.
5. fine
6. O.K. maybe it is better when i take a stroker crank
7.&8. Thank`s i look theese up.
9. O.K. maybe the carb must be pushed a little up with other nozzles and needles?

10. Maybe for the rpm I can use one of theeseKlick. Is the stock manifold maybe better and good for higher rpm? I didn`t knew that.

Well, my goal with the the car is to drive it on the street but in case there should be lots of power. While waiting for green the engine shouldn`t die but an evil run is ok for me .

Kind regards

Niko

Last edited by Chev8y; 09-18-2011 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 09-18-2011, 02:32 PM
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mw

I agree with everything creech said here. The 72 CC heads would probably give you trouble. At 72 CC chambers in the heads the static comp ratio would be at 9.88 to 1.
with a comp cams 51-222-4 cam ( XE 262 H ) the dynamic compression would be right on 8.3 to 1.
Looks like the ROZ number is several points higher than the RON number( the way octane is rated in USA ), 98 ROZ is probably at least equal to 93 RON ,
So that being said The 72 CC heads Might work pretty well in your combo with a XE 262 H cam, which is a good street cam.Remember... I said "might" so...
Reason being is that unless you are Decking the block to zero and using a .039 head gasket then you will have no Quench in the combution chamber and the engine wont tolerate Lower octane very well.
Stock deck height puts the pistons .023 in the hole, coupled with a .042 (stock) head gasket that puts the quench pad .065 thousanths from the head. Making it innefective.Zero decking the block, using a .039 head gasket and 84-CC chamber head would be a better and more reliable way to go.
Plus if you are going to stroke this 400, to gain cubic inches, wich is good for the street, just keep in mind that too will raise the static and dynamic compression further, causing more pontential for detonation.
You need to decide the purpose for your engine as stated here earlier.
Seems to me you said street.Post the vehicle weight and the gear ratio of the rear end,so we can see where you are at with the combo.
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Old 09-19-2011, 06:27 AM
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Hello,

thx for advice! And sorry for my bad english, it is some days ago.

I looked the ratio up. I have the PX752 with 3.23 rear gear posi. the transmission ratios are: 1st 2.52 2nd 1.52 3rd 1.00.
The weight of the car is around 1750 kg that is 3858 lb

The 350 tranny comes to a specialist here who told me 400+hp is able for the tranny after he build it up.

You are right with 93 RON (it is (ROZ+MOZ)/2). I can get here legal maximum 95 RON (BP Ultimate). Elswise i have to use octanebooster but better without.

I want to put out min. 400hp of the engine or more. I want to cruise smooth over the streets and in case the street changes into a strip. I dont wanna daily drive it but longer distances on the street should be able for the engine (holiday trips with wife and kids).
And i don`t want to spend too much money. I got Jim Hands book here too. Is this goal achieveable without stroked Crank? I Think i need forged flat top pistones and forged connecting rods in every case, as you told me. Piece of mind

I can buy here for example a chevy vortec 350 with around 350 hp for aroung 4000€ (5461$) brand new. But I think in can get more hp for less $, right? And I love more cui`s.

I read here it`s might be better to use the smaller combustion chambers for the 400 block.

Maybe i use this 4.25in stroked crank in connection with the 84cc heads forged connectors and pistons + roller rockers. But I need another length of the connecting rods than stock then there would be enough space in the chambers for lower fuel, right?

So many questions from a beginner

PS: I afterwelded the subframe on some locations and subframe connectors + traction bars are in use, so i think the car can handle the +hp.

King regards

Niko
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:28 AM
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If you want to stroke the 400 you need to see what casting the block is first. The 500557 casting number is not suitable for stroking, but it’s fine for a 400 HP street engine. Your ’77 should be a casting number 481988 block and if so it will be OK to stroke.

But being as how you “only” want 400 HP from this engine, you can get that with unported iron Pontiac heads, although it would be much easier to get that and more by using the 87cc chamber Edelbrock heads. Using the 87cc heads, the compression ratio will be 9.1:1 w/a 0.041” quench. Using the smaller 72cc chambers the CR will be about 10.5:1. This should be doable w/aluminum heads and the best gas you have available to you- but the cam selection will have a lot to do w/this, too.

If it were me, I’d use a 400 cid displacement engine (no stroker) with the 87cc D-port heads (p/n 61579) along w/a cam suited for the power you want in the RPM range where you’ll be at most of the time. Top it off w/a Edelbrock RPM intake and a 750 cfm carb and long, 4-tube headers and dual exhaust w/an H-pipe connecting the two sides. This combo will be super streetable, will not detonate, will not tear up the transmission or rear end and will top 400 HP w/ease.

Obviously there are better heads if you were going to take this engine out to a stroker or wanted to spin it up high enough to require aftermarket rods, etc. But for 400 HP or so, 'better' heads aren't needed.
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Old 09-19-2011, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
If you want to stroke the 400 you need to see what casting the block is first. The 500557 casting number is not suitable for stroking, but it’s fine for a 400 HP street engine. Your ’77 should be a casting number 481988 block and if so it will be OK to stroke.

I have to get sure tomorrow, but i remember its the 500557.

But being as how you “only” want 400 HP from this engine, you can get that with unported iron Pontiac heads, although it would be much easier to get that and more by using the 87cc chamber Edelbrock heads. Using the 87cc heads, the compression ratio will be 9.1:1 w/a 0.041” quench. Using the smaller 72cc chambers the CR will be about 10.5:1. This should be doable w/aluminum heads and the best gas you have available to you- but the cam selection will have a lot to do w/this, too.

I`m sorry, the quench is the distance from piston on top to cylinder head?


If it were me, I’d use a 400 cid displacement engine (no stroker) with the 87cc D-port heads (p/n 61579) along w/a cam suited for the power you want in the RPM range where you’ll be at most of the time. Top it off w/a Edelbrock RPM intake and a 750 cfm carb and long, 4-tube headers and dual exhaust w/an H-pipe connecting the two sides. This combo will be super streetable, will not detonate, will not tear up the transmission or rear end and will top 400 HP w/ease.

Do you think that roller rockers recommended for this combo? RPM manifold, 87cc D-port heads, Camkit , Hooker headers+ 2,5" dual exhaust, optimized Q-Jet carb and HEI ignition is enough for 400+hp? Rest are stock parts. Then it would be much easier for me to build that engine.


Obviously there are better heads if you were going to take this engine out to a stroker or wanted to spin it up high enough to require aftermarket rods, etc. But for 400 HP or so, 'better' heads aren't needed.
Thank you!
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Old 09-19-2011, 05:02 PM
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Your 557 block is fine for the stock 400 stroke, no worries there at the 400-450 HP level.

You are correct about the quench measurement. It is taken from the top of the piston (not the dome or dish, but the part of the piston that the compression height would be measured from) to the head’s deck. Keeping this around 0.040” will promote turbulence of the air/fuel mix in the combustion chamber. The turbulence will make for a better burn and is sometimes called “mechanical octane” because of how it can lessen the engine’s need for octane.

By browser won’t connect me to your cam link, but a cam w/somewhere in the neighborhood of 228-230 degrees @ 0.050” lift and about 0.500” lift will get the job done. You'll want a slightly looser torque converter to keep the engine from pulling against the brakes at a stop light. If you use a milder cam, you can get away w/a stock TC.

Roller rockers will work fine as long as you swap out the stock bottle neck studs for straight studs. Many guys use BBC studs on iron Pontiac heads, along w/Pontiac rockers and polylocs so the valve train is adjustable. That's not an issue if you go w/the Eddy heads. The rest of the build as you have it mapped out above is a sound plan, IMHO.

One other thing to consider is the hood clearance if you use the RPM intake and want to have a functional shaker scoop. The two don’t work together. I used a functional T/A scoop mounted to the underside of the hood of a ’81 Camaro, it fit fine, but didn't shake.
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Old 09-20-2011, 03:05 AM
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Thx!

I wanted to show the comp cam link "operating range of between 1300 to 5500 RPM. Good mid-range with noticeable idle. Features .462 intake valve lift, .470 exhaust valve lift, 262¦ intake duration, 270¦ exhaust duration"

But i saw that the heads you told me are not availaible at classicindustries.
I think summitracing has every part in stock. Could you do me a favour, to list up all the part numbers I need for the mission from summit with all gaskets? This would be very helpful to me, because i`m not that firm in technical american english.

There would be:

The d-port heads#61579 +bolts#8561 and gasket #?
7/16 roller rockers#?+posi locks#?+ straight studs#? (for an adjustable valve train)
Camshaft kit+springs+lifters+timing chain #??
RPM manifold #EDL-7156

Please add parts are necessary.

Kind regards

Niko
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Old 09-20-2011, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chev8y
Thx!

I wanted to show the comp cam link "operating range of between 1300 to 5500 RPM. Good mid-range with noticeable idle. Features .462 intake valve lift, .470 exhaust valve lift, 262¦ intake duration, 270¦ exhaust duration"

But i saw that the heads you told me are not availaible at classicindustries.
I think summitracing has every part in stock. Could you do me a favour, to list up all the part numbers I need for the mission from summit with all gaskets? This would be very helpful to me, because i`m not that firm in technical american english.

There would be:

The d-port heads#61579 +bolts#8561 and gasket #?
7/16 roller rockers#?+posi locks#?+ straight studs#? (for an adjustable valve train)
Camshaft kit+springs+lifters+timing chain #??
RPM manifold #EDL-7156

Please add parts are necessary.

Kind regards

Niko
Niko, I'd advise you to call Summit or who ever you choose to do business with and ask for their assistance. The heads I suggested are just that- a suggestion. There are Kauffman heads in D-port as well as the RPM round port heads from Edelbrock. They are available assembled or bare and there are head bolts recommended by Edelbrock as well as head gaskets IIRC.

Have you spoken to Classic? The info might be old- those D-port heads haven't been out all that long compared to the other heads.

Before ordering ANY of them, do a lot more research first to be sure that what you think you want is actually what you need.

Good luck.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:24 AM
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Well, of course you right. The main problem is I can`t give the parts back because the shipping costs a lot of money. So everything has to fit in the first try .

I hope summit can give me a special advice, which parts are necessery for the engine and which fit together in my plan. Maybe I`ll call them tonight when they start working. They have to speak slowly

Better i write them an email with my interest, first.

ThX again to all of you who wrote here!
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:40 AM
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Ford ALL THE WAY

get a ford
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68chevy.
get a ford
Well, a lot of the US-car driver here say "Er fuhr Ford und kam nie wieder"

I got here 2 BMW 5series E34. And 2 Ford transits, too. But theese get next week a Mike Sanders visit .
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Old 09-21-2011, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chev8y
Well, of course you right. The main problem is I can`t give the parts back because the shipping costs a lot of money. So everything has to fit in the first try .

I hope summit can give me a special advice, which parts are necessery for the engine and which fit together in my plan. Maybe I`ll call them tonight when they start working. They have to speak slowly

Better i write them an email with my interest, first.

ThX again to all of you who wrote here!
I do not want to just abandon you at this point. Lets do this:

See what Summit has to say. Then if you'd like an opinion on that, post back here with what they have advised you to get and we can give you some feedback.

There are some places that specialize in Pontiac engines. I have a lot of them listed below, I would urge you to take your time to write to one or two of these places and get their feedback as well. I've used Butler and had an overall good experience w/them. But you can look the various sites over to see what your impression of them are. I'd warn you to take a lot of what you read at the Fulper site w/a grain of salt- he's always "over the top" w/his claims.

Maybe if any other members read this they could give their impressions of any of these guys to help you choose.

SOME SITES FOR PONTIAC PARTS & INFO:

Ken “Ace” Brewer @ Pacific Performance Racing- http://www.pacificperformanceracing.com/index.html

Butler Performance- http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/

SD Performance- http://www.sdperformance.com/

Performance Years Pontiac (One of the largest sites)- http://www.performanceyears.com/

Ken’s Speed & Machine Shop- http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiac...chineshop.html

Nunzi- http://www.nunzi-pontiac-expert.com/

Fulper* aka Rock & Roll Engineering- http://pontiacpower.com/
*Two of the Pontiac guys here have warned about this guy. I have had no dealings w/him personally, so have no comment either way- except to say his claims and rhetoric is definitely "over the top".

SD Performance- http://www.sdperformance.com/

Tin Indian Performance http://www.tinindianperformance.com/

Kauffman Racing Equipment- http://www.krepower.com/

All Pontiac.com- http://www.allpontiac.com/

Wallace Racing- http://www.wallaceracing.com/


A FEW SELECTED ARTICLES BY JIM HAND (there are many more)

Jim Hand “BUILDING A STRONG STREET MACHINE”@ Classic Firebird
http://www.classicfirebird.com/hand/hand.html

Hand on Cams
http://www.dapa.org/jhpages/pontiac-cams.htm’

Hand on ROCKER RATIOS/MODS
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....ockerArms.html


PONTIAC MAGS ON THE WEB:

Pontiac Street Performance
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/

Pontiac Street Performance Featured Cars & Engines
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....turedcars.html

Pontiac Street Performance Tech Articles
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....harticles.html

High Performance Pontiac
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/

Also, there have been numerous threads here- use the "Search" function for more info.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:34 PM
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@ cobalt327

Thanks a lot man! This is a huge bunge of info material .
I`ll check this. I post here before i order parts in every case.

The problem here is as you said. Pontiac engines are not very public here. Someone says this...and someone that...so the only way is, to get it by myself


Kind regards

Niko
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