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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2008, 05:32 PM
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My question is, how are these companies getting away with making these high zinc oils if the feds/epa/commybrownnosers are mandating that it be removed? Seems to me the hammer will fall on them too.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2008, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.E.C.
I'm using MotorHead Classic Motor Oil (motorheadoil.com) and it typically has over 1500 ppm zinc (and yes, I've had it lab-tested). It isn't synthetic though..but if you like the synthetics (I don't) they sell their zddp additive separately, and you can use THAT with any oil...it boost a 5 quart oil-change by 700 ppm.

has anyone else used this oil before?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:17 AM
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BZP......It seems to be fairly new. I've googled it and about all I can find are single posts only promoting the product, but nothing more on any outside test results. ? Hmmmm.
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Old 04-19-2008, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmark
My question is, how are these companies getting away with making these high zinc oils if the feds/epa/commybrownnosers are mandating that it be removed? Seems to me the hammer will fall on them too.
Feds didn't mandate removing the zinc. Detroit did, as replacing catalytic converters under warrantee got too expensive for them.

AMSOIL gets around the new spec by choosing not to "rate" many of their oils as SM. (Although the do sell some SM oils, also). Motorhead has a disclaimer on their label that says not to use their oil with a catalytic converter.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2008, 06:52 PM
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Here is a very good article on the Zinc debate and classic cars vs. new cars.

Source article.

The EPA has mandated that currently produced emission systems must have a service life that exceeds 193,000 kilometres or 120,000 miles. Because of the widespread use of roller bearing camshafts in contemporary engines over the last decade, manufacturers no longer require the additional protection of zinc and phosphorus additives in the oil. To achieve the EPA mandate, automotive manufacturers have required oil suppliers to remove ZDDP additive packages from motor oils that could reduce compliance. With the EPA mandate met and new vehicle manufacturers taken care of, it just leaves the rest of us out in the cold.

For classic cars, muscle cars and even older farm tractors this creates a significant problem. The oil manufacturer's new and improved moniker we've come to unabashedly trust and grab from the store shelves may in fact be a poison pill for our prized rides. Historically the ZDDP has been added to oils in amounts of approximately 0.15% phosphorus, and 0.18% zinc. This places a thin film on camshaft lobes and flat lifter contact points, protecting them from the extreme pressure and heat by providing a sacrificial or false wear surface, protecting the base metal of the camshaft and lifter from wear. Take that thin film away and we've got problems.
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Old 04-19-2008, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by richard stewart 3rd
bonzipenguins,
Below is the information you asked for.
Rich

http://www.bradpennracing.com/
PPC Lubricants
Bill Kipphorn Distributor 800 772 5823

I hate to open up a can of worms as I know this subject has been bantered around here quite a bit. I've personally read those posts along with subsequent articles attached.

Hey, I've got a flat tappet cam that I want to go the distance so I'm up for any and all education.

Question though regarding the above referenced oil..........I was always taught to run ash based oils as opposed to parrafin based oils. Valvoline being my pick for many years. If I'm going to switch to Brad Penn, someone needs to let me know why this would be best.

And not to digress, but Richard, not everyone in the Middle East wants to kill us.
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Old 04-19-2008, 11:00 PM
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Hi,
Well I'm sure everyone in the middle east doesn't want to kill us,
& I'm just as sure that everyone in Vietnam didn't want to kill us (me), same for Cuba,(no shooting here, just bottles & stones over the fence) & Santo Damingo (lost 1 & 2 captured) but you would have not been able to convince me of that when I was there, I still look at older Orientals & wonder to myself, well enough of that.
Buzz around the site below.
Take care,
Rich

http://www.exploroz.com/Vehicle/Serv...sandLubes.aspx
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2008, 11:48 PM
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Gotcha Rich, I think we have come a long way.........with still a long way to go.

As for the site, looks good, but I'll peruse it in the AM as it's been a long day.

I'm 13 years your junior but very sympathetic to our vets.....
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Old 04-20-2008, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedydude
I hate to open up a can of worms as I know this subject has been bantered around here quite a bit. I've personally read those posts along with subsequent articles attached.

Hey, I've got a flat tappet cam that I want to go the distance so I'm up for any and all education.

Question though regarding the above referenced oil..........I was always taught to run ash based oils as opposed to parrafin based oils. Valvoline being my pick for many years. If I'm going to switch to Brad Penn, someone needs to let me know why this would be best.

And not to digress, but Richard, not everyone in the Middle East wants to kill us.
Hi Speed Dude,

If you want your flat tappet cam to have as long of a life as possible, the most important thing you can do is make sure you have adequate zinc in your oil. However you do that is a matter of personal preference. There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with a paraffin-based oil (these are the oils that "came out of the ground" from oil wells). And since you cite Valvoline as being your pick for years, you have been using a paraffin-based oil all along (assuming that you haven't been using a Valvoline Synthetic). There are basically only two types of oil (paraffinic and synthetic) although there is a "third" type on the store shelf (blended), but that one is just a mixture of the basic two, the relatively inexpensive paraffin-based oil, and the relatively pricey synthetic. For "my money" (which is usually scarce) synthetic only "earns its keep" if you want to get 4000 or 5000 miles out of an oil change. Synthetics (apparently) can go that distance.

But I am really hesitant to "do that" to an engine, even if "the oil can take it", I am not confident that the engine is well served. Those extra 2500 miles mean that the oil has accumulated an extra 2500 miles of combustion by-products (acids and ash) washing all over the expensive innards. The concentration of these pollutants HAS to be higher than if the oil was changed at 2500 miles. I would rather buy less expensive oil and change it more frequently. Its a personal choice.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2008, 10:17 PM
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Two oil changes ago, I ran my regular Chevron 10-40 to 6,400 miles and then sent in a sample to Blackstone labs for testing. They came back with only one statement that was worth mentioning, they said my additive package was getting borderline and I should drop back to 5000 mile oil changes. There was no evidence of fuel delution and all other areas were within spec. I was impressed, and the oil i'm using is just plain old Chevron from Checker.

I know that roller cams are not affected by the lack of ZDDP but not every engine has roller cams! There are many millions of "cam in the head" engines out there and they are doing fine. I dunno, I know it's not good, but for me and my engines, i'm doing ok so far.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:26 PM
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There was an article about the zinc in oils in one of the magazines. It said most diesel oils have a high zinc content. Diesels don't have converters, do they?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2008, 10:41 PM
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Diesel oils are cutting way back too. I do not think you will find any new stock that is acceptable anymore, atleast at the stardards that most want.

Diesels don't have cats, per say, but do use what is called a "scrubber" that further cleans the exhaust before it exits the tailpipe.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2008, 02:14 AM
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yeah, all us diesel guys stocked up on the CI-4 oils before they were replaced by the CJ-4 "low zinc" so it pretty rare to see the stuff on the parts shelves anymore.

As it turns out as far as the diesels go most of us just change oil a little earlier than before. So far I haven't heard of a cam going flat on a diesel yet and this covers at least 100k members on 6 forums. Lots of cat and burner problems however on the new diesels.

There are a couple additives but the Brad Penn seems to be the best so far. I use the Crane additive as recommended. It's probably very similar to the GM EOS that has been discontinued.

I'll be going to a roller cam in the future anyway. Just more $$$. dang.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2008, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.E.C.
Hi Speed Dude,

If you want your flat tappet cam to have as long of a life as possible, the most important thing you can do is make sure you have adequate zinc in your oil. However you do that is a matter of personal preference. There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with a paraffin-based oil (these are the oils that "came out of the ground" from oil wells). And since you cite Valvoline as being your pick for years, you have been using a paraffin-based oil all along (assuming that you haven't been using a Valvoline Synthetic). There are basically only two types of oil (paraffinic and synthetic) although there is a "third" type on the store shelf (blended), but that one is just a mixture of the basic two, the relatively inexpensive paraffin-based oil, and the relatively pricey synthetic. For "my money" (which is usually scarce) synthetic only "earns its keep" if you want to get 4000 or 5000 miles out of an oil change. Synthetics (apparently) can go that distance.

But I am really hesitant to "do that" to an engine, even if "the oil can take it", I am not confident that the engine is well served. Those extra 2500 miles mean that the oil has accumulated an extra 2500 miles of combustion by-products (acids and ash) washing all over the expensive innards. The concentration of these pollutants HAS to be higher than if the oil was changed at 2500 miles. I would rather buy less expensive oil and change it more frequently. Its a personal choice.
Ok I am obviously somewhat ignorant here, but thought I knew. I'm no oil expert but was told, probably by one of my engine builder buddies, that it is better to use ash based oils as opposed to parrafin based. Case in point..........Pennzoil=parrafin. Valvoline=ash base. I can't remember where I got this info but apparently I may be all screwed up.

Are all standard brand oils parrafin based and only synthetic oils ash based????? JMARK you probably know the answer to this one. Say it ain't so brother. Tell me all my Valvoline oil changes are not without merit. If this is the case I think I will be rethinking the whole oil issue.

To me, this is THEE most important aspect of maintaining you engine. A few extra dollars spent on good oil is not the issue. I want stuff to last and I want to build another engine, not out of necessity, but because I have the time and energy to create something better than what I currently have.

Just looking for some clarification here as now I'm definitely more confused than I was before.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2008, 09:35 PM
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Speedydude....I"m no oil expert either, but from what I know, ash is a byproduct of burning oil. That is one of the big pushes right now, to reduce the ash content in the oil, or said differently, reduce the ash deposits in the exhaust.

I have never heard of "ash based oil". parrafin yes, ash, no.

Parriffin oil is basically Kerosene, same stuff I burn in all my 50+ antique oil lamps. It's derived from petroleum just like gasoline, diesel and engine oils. I really don't understand the termanology in "ash and parriffin oil". There is a lot to sift through, you might try googling "parriffin Valvoline oil" and "ash oil", lots to read.

Mark

Last edited by Jmark; 04-21-2008 at 09:43 PM.
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