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-   -   HOK Orion Silver... wrinkles... always. Why? (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/hok-orion-silver-wrinkles-always-why-100743.html)

Ultra Al 10-22-2006 10:28 AM

If you just simply don't want to use Orion silver anymore, X-otic has a similar (identical as far as I can tell) color called sparklee silver. Its what my jobber stocks so thats what I use ortherwise I have to order HOK. I have never had any problems with the X-otic, but then again never had any issues with the HOK either, my guess here is (assuming you did everything right) you have a big unknown with the previous paint job which was done off shore, who knows what was in it, Japanese fisheye remover? could be anything. How would it react with other paint? Your guess is as good as mine. AL.

UR50SLO 10-22-2006 10:33 AM

I think their silver sealer is neat... it does help save basecoat.

When you've got problems with it digging down and uplifting stuff it's never any fun :spank:

I tend to use a primer that's shaded close to the final color I'm going to use or make up a ground coat color that get's the entire car covered first then use the actual color that's going to be the final basecoat.

The only thing I seal is new bumpers or new sheet metal. If i've got time or if it's a project car I'll actually prime the parts... block them down and put them in basecoat. When I assemble them I'll sand the panel with 1000G and put on the final couple of base coats and clear it... :)

Temperature and air flow over the panels will either help or kill you every time.
Clean air is also a big factor..... I love these articles in Car Craft and Hot Rod.. "Paint your own car" I just laugh... knowing how many I've fixed that guys started and ended up in trouble. Not their fault... they just read a article and thought.. that looks easy! :nono:
I'll give them props for trying!!!!!!
Heck.. I get in trouble sometimes with ideal conditions and product... !!!!
For someone to do it at home your setup for disaster!
~Scott

BarryK 10-22-2006 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UR50SLO
I love these articles in Car Craft and Hot Rod.. "Paint your own car" I just laugh... knowing how many I've fixed that guys started and ended up in trouble. Not their fault... they just read a article and thought.. that looks easy! :nono:
I'll give them props for trying!!!!!!
Heck.. I get in trouble sometimes with ideal conditions and product... !!!!
For someone to do it at home your setup for disaster!
~Scott

Scott,
You must mean a first-timer?? Doing it at home?

If not there are a bunch of guys on here doing extremely high dollar work as we speak in their garages that most body shops could not match the quality of work we or they do.
302/Z28, Bondoking, Badbob, Atkart, Barryk and a whole bunch more.
Barry

UR50SLO 10-22-2006 11:35 AM

4 Attachment(s)
Yes... that's what I'm talking about... do it at home with little experience and expect show car results...

I'm not talking about guys that have knowldege and experience. I painted on the floor for years... I'm sure I'll pay for it with my health later on in life. Wet sanding and buffing will do wonders.

When you have a real booth it makes it nice to pull the job out and not have to take a coat of clear off color sanding and buffing.
This one came out of the booth like this:
87LX with a Buick GN engine in it.

One picture is where the car started out :)
~Scott

OneMoreTime 10-22-2006 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryK
Scott,
You must mean a first-timer?? Doing it at home?

If not there are a bunch of guys on here doing extremely high dollar work as we speak in their garages that most body shops could not match the quality of work we or they do.
302/Z28, Bondoking, Badbob, Atkart, Barryk and a whole bunch more.
Barry

I would second that..I see a lot of work done by "amateurs" that meets or beats anything the "proshops" do..guess it has to do with being dedicated to doing a good job..

Sam

BarryK 10-22-2006 11:46 AM

I have a friend eight miles from me that bought a $65,000 bake booth
to play in, its been used twice in a year and I have free access to it but both black goats last year I painted in my garage and if they were normal warranty or collision work they would not have needed to be buffed except one spot on the quarter of the judge.
The black vette will be finished right here in my little 2 3/4 play shop and breathing is every bit as safe as your booth.
Oh the two goats brought just under $400,000 last year, so guess we were lucky did not have to hire you out. LOL

MARTINSR 10-22-2006 11:57 AM

Scott never said "it can't be done", what he said was doing your first job (refering to the guys who read articles and think it is easy) in a garage you are "setting yourself up for disaster". And I totally agree. That is not saying it can't be done, far from it. There is really no reason for any kind of peeing contest.

Spraying a car in a booth is like using that new die grinder I recently got with the swivel head on it. I find myself at home without it and can barely work using my old one that was just fine before I got the new one. :)

After spraying in a booth you feel the same way. No clean up, no overspray all over everything, no die back, no headache from all the stuff you took into your body, little to no dirt in the paint, etc.

And using a booth doesn't guarantee everything is honkydory. It does take skills and experiance. The thing is more skills and experiance is needed to do it in the garage and end up with the same results.

Sure you can paint in a garage, I have painted plenty there, show winning jobs. But if one has the choice I would assume we would go with a booth.

Brian

kenseth17 10-22-2006 02:31 PM

Until I become rich, I'll just keep painting in my little garage. I agree that you have odds stacked against you if you are new to it as well as fighting conditions, temp, lighting ect. But like already stated a lot of people turn out nice work in there garage and many first timers have posted some nice looking jobs right in this forum, and I grew up seeing some nice looking paint job come out of a few different neighbors garages on our block. If someone is working on there own personal vehicle at home, they possibly will take more time on it as well as the little guy who can only work on one car at a time. They may also have the luxury of letting stuff sit longer or overnight cause they don't have another waiting for the booth or a time schedule to keep. Not saying all will, or they may be overwhelmed by all the bodywork at that point they just want to shoot paint on the dang thing. That shop may just have to pay big overhead as well as keep the jobs flowing in and out to pay for that nice downdraft with heated make up air. If you read some past posts about the big name guys I few have stated seeing them with some shoddy work, so nothing as guarenteed either way, but when you have painted in a nice booth, then paint in a not so nice booth or garage, you often wish you had that nice booth back. The biggest thing for me is the time it takes to shoot paint on something versus a booth. Cleaning and making room in the garage, and waiting for the right time to start painting.
Ohh yeah, and it was those articles in car craft and hot rod in the late 80's, as well as seeing my neighbors cars that made me get really interested in painting. And If it had an article on body and paint, I'd often buy it off the stand. I still have most of my collection from back then.

UR50SLO 10-22-2006 02:47 PM

Quote:

Oh the two goats brought just under $400,000 last year, so guess we were lucky did not have to hire you out. LOL
That kind of money for a GTO is some one who has more money than sense regardless of where it was restored. Barrett Jackson or whatever auction brings those kind of prices. They help the avarage price of most muscle cars so I'm not knocking it.
Any garage paint job is going to need color sanded and buffed. Most booth jobs do to... it just makes for less work in a booth.

Quote:

Scott never said "it can't be done", what he said was doing your first job (refering to the guys who read articles and think it is easy) in a garage you are "setting yourself up for disaster". And I totally agree.
Thanks.. that was all I was getting at. I spent less than 30,000 on my booth.
It's a Team Blowtherm. I learned alot building it with one of the guys from the company helping. It's all about the air that is flowing over the car. Most of the junk that ends up in the paint is from the painter.. or the gun in a booth. If you've done your prep work right you'll have a nice end product booth or not.
As stated before... It is the person doing the work... Big name.. Garage.. Booth ... whatever.. it's the care and attention to detail that'll make the difference in the end. Poor prep = Poor job.. I don't care if John Kosmoski is painting... The prep work or body work sucks.. so does the paint.
Oh.. by the way.. if any of you get the opertunity to see John Kosmoski speak in a paint class... It's worth your time! I've been twice and will go again if he comes with in 3hrs of my home town.. What a GREAT speaker!!
You'll learn more than you ever thought possible!

Quote:

And using a booth doesn't guarantee everything is honkydory. It does take skills and experiance. The thing is more skills and experiance is needed to do it in the garage and end up with the same results.
Once again... agree 100%
Some products work well in a booth and some work better on the floor. Once you've found the product that works in your environment (booth or floor) your going to have a better success painting. Problems can happen in either place... been there many times in both booth and floor. It happens!

Quote:

The black vette will be finished right here in my little 2 3/4 play shop and breathing is every bit as safe as your booth.
Sorry.. but that's not even close. I don't care how big of a fan you've got your not moving 1/3 the air a down draft booth does. If you can see "ANY" overspray lingering it's not enough. When I was in Sikkens school (Akzo Nobel) the information they gave on how critical getting the overspray out to not allowing any of it on your skin was scarry! When laquer thinner gets on your hands it's in your blood stream and in your system in less than 4sec.
Overspray/Isocinates enter any where there's a opening on your body. Eyes/ears/skin/nose ect... Protect yourself!! Don't take it lightly. That's alot of the reason I got a booth. I realy don't want to DIE doing somthing I love.

Glad you got 400,000 for your car.. now you can afford to spend a little on a booth to live longer!!!!!! :P
~Scott

UR50SLO 10-22-2006 03:03 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Couple of pic's of a local guy's 81 corvette that I did the paint/body on.
A friend of mine did all the mechanicals on it. He did a great job putting the car back together. That's a job!
It came to me on a rollable cart just the body. It was a no-buffer. Pull it out of the booth and it went back together from there.
Once again.. many many hrs of prep and tape work.
I've totaly gotten off track.. what was this thread started about again? :confused: :smash:
Oh yea... wrinkles in the base.. . :D
~Scott.

BarryK 10-22-2006 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UR50SLO
That kind of money for a GTO is some one who has more money than sense regardless of where it was restored. Barrett Jackson or whatever auction brings those kind of prices. They help the average price of most muscle cars so I'm not knocking it.
Any garage paint job is going to need color sanded and buffed. Most booth jobs do to... it just makes for less work in a booth.


Thanks.. that was all I was getting at. I spent less than 30,000 on my booth.
It's a Team Blowtherm. I learned alot building it with one of the guys from the company helping. It's all about the air that is flowing over the car. Most of the junk that ends up in the paint is from the painter.. or the gun in a booth. If you've done your prep work right you'll have a nice end product booth or not.
As stated before... It is the person doing the work... Big name.. Garage.. Booth ... whatever.. it's the care and attention to detail that'll make the difference in the end. Poor prep = Poor job.. I don't care if John Kosmoski is painting... The prep work or body work sucks.. so does the paint.
Oh.. by the way.. if any of you get the opertunity to see John Kosmoski speak in a paint class... It's worth your time! I've been twice and will go again if he comes with in 3hrs of my home town.. What a GREAT speaker!!
You'll learn more than you ever thought possible!


Once again... agree 100%
Some products work well in a booth and some work better on the floor. Once you've found the product that works in your environment (booth or floor) your going to have a better success painting. Problems can happen in either place... been there many times in both booth and floor. It happens!


Sorry.. but that's not even close. I don't care how big of a fan you've got your not moving 1/3 the air a down draft booth does. If you can see "ANY" overspray lingering it's not enough. When I was in Sikkens school (Akzo Nobel) the information they gave on how critical getting the overspray out to not allowing any of it on your skin was scarry! When laquer thinner gets on your hands it's in your blood stream and in your system in less than 4sec.
Overspray/Isocinates enter any where there's a opening on your body. Eyes/ears/skin/nose ect... Protect yourself!! Don't take it lightly. That's alot of the reason I got a booth. I realy don't want to DIE doing somthing I love.

Glad you got 400,000 for your car.. now you can afford to spend a little on a booth to live longer!!!!!! :P
~Scott

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Who are you to tell me How safe my garage is?

I know all about solvents on the skin since I make the stuff.
You may think you know all but when you make statements like all garage jobs must be buffed and wet sanding will save anything I take as an insult and show your work that is worth noting as I have not seen anything impressive yet except some one setting behind a computer that knows all.

If you don't understand vaules of rare cars then stay out of it, its been my life so I really don't care if that seems outrages to you or not.

If you don't know, don't stereo type.

UR50SLO 10-22-2006 03:29 PM

At what point did I EVER say I knew it all.... I'm the last guy to ever say that!!!!! I learn somthing new every day.
I'm not a smart-*** nor do I pretend to know it all.
There's always someone with a faster car or better car. Build them how you want or how the customer wants. Not for every one else.

If I didn't want to help people I would not be on many boards trying to help.
If you get 400,000 for a car ... congrats... cudo's.. Keep do'n it.

Trying to compare a booth to a garage is a pointless argument. :boxing: If your happy with it great... glad it works for ya. I was just trying to give general info on painting on the floor....99% of garages don't have explosion proof lighting or fans. Only takes one thing wrong and it all go's up in a ball of fire. I got lucky for the years I did that... Just don't want someone to have a mis-conseption that painting in a garage with today's paint's is safe. It's not!!!!
BTW... a picture says 1000 words. :D
~Scott

kenseth17 10-22-2006 03:37 PM

Where is colorme at? See what I was talking about in that older thread you got beat up in? How did this go from wrinkles in Hok to booths, and how does a mustang and vette have anything to do with it?

BarryK 10-22-2006 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenseth17
Where is colorme at? See what I was talking about in that older thread you got beat up in? How did this go from wrinkles in Hok to booths, and how does a mustang and vette have anything to do with it?

Uh!

Your right, it don't and don't need be.

mrcleanr6 12-16-2006 09:16 AM

uhhh!! back to the wrinkles. i already explained this to buddy but i figured i would post for others. the reason the wrinkles are happening is not because of enough flash time, its because of too much flash time. you spray koseal like its your first coat of base. let it flash for 15 min then go right to your color. if you let it set up to long ( an hour or more) it starts to harden up and will be in the sensitive stage just like a fresh clear would be. everything that leaves my shop has a coat of koseal on it before i base out. i had the same wrinke problem back when i first started to use it but then realized i was using the product wrong. one of the best things i ever did was start using that stuff.


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