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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2013, 10:21 PM
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I called Holley and told them my problem as I said earlier in the Thread. They told me they were aware of the problem . This was pump vibration pressure. They told me this was my problem but they don't make the ball check bowls anymore. They also said the problem is worse if you run solid mounts! They also said the problem is noticed more on street driven cars or roundy rounders that run in varying RPM ranges but its not really noticed on drag cars because they run at full throttle! LOL Wow that floats my boat LOL

So if you have those old bowls laying around with the Ball Checks HANG ON TO THEM LOL Whether you believe it or not It doesn't matter LOL! But to the few that this thread gives cause to wonder? Here's to ya

By the way Quick-fuel still uses the check ball. LOL

Jester

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Old 04-08-2013, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
F-Bird: Its like you are the only one that watched and paid attention to the video!

Jester
i didn't watch it. I already knew about it.
Been messing with holleys for a long time.

Good post.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
i didn't watch it. I already knew about it.
Been messing with holleys for a long time.

Good post.


Thats the first encounter I had with the problem! You would think the word would have gotten around! But if it happens againI know now LOL!! and have enough bowls to take care of it. Its funny almost all the carbs I rebuild Have the check balls only a few of the 500 2 barrels Ive done have the rubber umbrella ones. The last 2 new Holleys I jetted and tuned had the rubber checks and are the only ones that gave me the problem. Both engines had solid motor Mts. one Mopar and one GM.

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Old 04-09-2013, 07:38 AM
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nice vid.. but only may happen.. and a a/f meter would tell you..
I'd think a light spring would work, as not everyone has a shop full of old carb bowls..

my question to the o/p is if it's happening at 2800 rpm..
thats not a cruise rpm for most.. nor is an engine at that rpm long as you run through the gears..
might this be why holley isn't fixing this.. as most engines, the rpm for this to happen the engine moves through within milli seconds normally..
with this mopar is 2800 the cruise rpm?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
I called Holley and told them my problem as I said earlier in the Thread. They told me they were aware of the problem . This was pump vibration pressure.
If this is what holley attributes it to then I would go with that. Holley saying something is a lot different than Joe Blow with a video camera saying something. I'm surprised they haven't found a way to improve the seal if its a recognized problem.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:37 AM
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I dont buy the idea that the rubber has enough mass to oscillate and generate enough force to push that much fuel. I think the spring/arm on the secondary pump is what must be oscillating if that is in fact what is actually happening. Redo the test with the arm removed.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:29 AM
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This is very common problem on 2300 Fords due to the vibration and yes it is related to the rubber diaphragm in the accelerator pump housing. My fix was a machined Delrin ring inserted into the housing between the two pump diaphragms. At open throttle the plastic ring held the smaller diaphragm closed so it wouldn't pump.

Needless to say lots of dyno time involved to get it to work right.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:28 AM
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Okay, I watched it and it makes sense. My question is how can I tell if my 600 dp has the rubber umbrella or metal check ball without pulling it all apart or videoing the carb? I have seen my A/F ratio on the dyno and it is beautiful, but that only lasts for the "pull" and doesn't represent the conditions in the video.

Is there a certain series that they went away from the check ball that I can just look at the part number on the bowl and where would I look?

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Old 04-09-2013, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
nice vid.. but only may happen.. and a a/f meter would tell you..
I'd think a light spring would work, as not everyone has a shop full of old carb bowls..

my question to the o/p is if it's happening at 2800 rpm..
thats not a cruise rpm for most.. nor is an engine at that rpm long as you run through the gears..
might this be why holley isn't fixing this.. as most engines, the rpm for this to happen the engine moves through within milli seconds normally..
with this mopar is 2800 the cruise rpm?

An A/f meter would tell you you have a problem not what the problem is! And yes it is a "may happen" situation! And cruise speed has nothing to do with it,You could take that same carb that gave you a problem on one engine at 2800 RPM and put it on another and not have the problem because the harmonics would be different from engine to engine. And it could be at any RPM that that particular harmonic would be applied to the rubber check 2800 on 1 engine and 6000 on another!

I was tuning in on a dino so it was easy to see what I thought was pull over! But if a guy was having the problem at 5000, 3000, or 1500 rpm in gear it would be hard to find and you could trouble shoot till your butt turned green and never find it! I did read that a fiber spacer under the carb might help absorb the harmonics? Ive been reading up on the problem LOL



Jester

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Old 04-09-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by lmsport View Post
I dont buy the idea that the rubber has enough mass to oscillate and generate enough force to push that much fuel. I think the spring/arm on the secondary pump is what must be oscillating if that is in fact what is actually happening. Redo the test with the arm removed.
that was my original assumption, but I'm sure Holley has done some testing on it, if they admit their product has a problem I'm not going to be the one that tells them they're wrong.

A gasket of some elastic material should help dampen it, rubber, fiber, wood, they will all work to some extent.

perhaps even changing the gaskets in the carb could help reduce the problem- going to those reusable gaskets that are much more elastic.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:06 PM
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Ive been reading about it on many speed sites and roundy rounders, its hard to find!!! the problem has no name to do a search with LOL

Here is one I pulled off a Mopar site.

"A Holley problem all should know about and Why Holley Tech S#@KS"
Oldmanmopar


"Quote") Oldmanmopar:
05-11-2011, 09:46 AM
"I have recently been working on a problem with a 350 boost referenced holley carb on my supercharged omni. While holding the throttle open, the accelerator squirters would start pushing fuel like they were injectors. I was told this was called pull over and was common on 4 cylinders from intake pulses. I called holley tech line and was told by them they make parts to eliminate this issue.. I bought they're anti pull over squirters which come on all spread bores (no help). Then they sold me a Mallory metal needle, heavier and they are sold and made to prevent pull over.(no help). Then They sold me a spring loaded needle. (no help). I was working on this for a long time. I made an adapter plate for the blower for a carter 625 comp. series carb. and the problem was gone. Because of the width of the carb it was hitting the firewall lip I couldn't leave it on. I called holley and they told me the problem was I needed more CFM with the Blower. So I bought a 500 Holley and boost referenced it and put it on. Right back to square one. I installed all parts the required listed above. (no help). They then had me drill a .020 hole in the pump passage on the back side of the metering block. They said this would let it suck air out of the top of the bowl and not fuel. That seamed to slow it up but I lost some squirt a the pump when needed. so (no help) I gave up. Then one day I was working on the duster it was running rich in the middle while cruising. It has a BLP 1000 CFM. I called them and they told me The emulsion jets in the metering blocks were not meant for mid range cruising. I put 850 holley blocks in and jetted it for the top. While I was holding the throttle open at 4000 I noticed the accelerator squirters doing the same as the omni. I thought to my self. What the F#@k. is going on here. I called up a Roundy round friend and told him what it was was doing. he asked if I had solid mounts. I said yeah I did. He said change the bowls. The new holleys from around 1990 on have a orange diaphragm check valve in the accelerator pump, this is a total seal and although better on a mild street car on rubber it won’t work on a steel mounted race motor on the street . while holding a steady throttle the pump diaphragm picks up a vibration with solid mounts and starts to pump fuel. through the squirters because the passage back to the bowl is sealed. He also told me this is why Quick-fuel still uses the check ball. I asked why it is never noticeable on race cars. He told me on circle track cars it is , under part throttle. But on drag cars your usually full throttle and jet accordingly. I put older holley bowls on the BLP and the problem was gone . I even put the billet blocks back on it that came with the carb. I then got the Omni back out and put a n older bowl on that 500. And low and behold it was fixed. I called holley and told them my findings. They told me yes they were aware of this but I told them I had pull over. This was not, it was pump vibration pressure. I got kind of mad and asked what are they going to do about the new bowls I would have to buy now . They told me this was my problem and suggested me to look at flea markets for old carbs because they don't make those bowls anymore, and I should have used their carb with rubber mounts as recommended. What a F#@kin joke. No wonder Every one stays away from holley. I am buying a new quick fuel as suggested. BLP bull ****ted me to."


I like Holleys and will stay with them LOL, I can't edit a quote but that's basically what Holley told me the other day It kind of made me mad too LOL

Jester
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:32 PM
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2013, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
that was my original assumption, but I'm sure Holley has done some testing on it, if they admit their product has a problem I'm not going to be the one that tells them they're wrong.

A gasket of some elastic material should help dampen it, rubber, fiber, wood, they will all work to some extent.

perhaps even changing the gaskets in the carb could help reduce the problem- going to those reusable gaskets that are much more elastic.
I'm thinking a small piece of fuel cell foam inside of the spring should change the harmonic resonance of the check valve.
I have a brand new Braswell carb that uses the same orange valve as a Holley and I will make sure to bring the GoPRo to the dyno when i get ready to test my next engine.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2013, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
An A/f meter would tell you you have a problem not what the problem is! And yes it is a "may happen" situation! And cruise speed has nothing to do with it,You could take that same carb that gave you a problem on one engine at 2800 RPM and put it on another and not have the problem because the harmonics would be different from engine to engine. And it could be at any RPM that that particular harmonic would be applied to the rubber check 2800 on 1 engine and 6000 on another!

I was tuning in on a dino so it was easy to see what I thought was pull over! But if a guy was having the problem at 5000, 3000, or 1500 rpm in gear it would be hard to find and you could trouble shoot till your butt turned green and never find it! I did read that a fiber spacer under the carb might help absorb the harmonics? Ive been reading up on the problem LOL



Jester
I uderstand that,, my question to YOU is, is this REALLY a problem if the engine will not see steady 2800 rpm use(cruise rpm)
while running through the rpm range that "mini squirt" of fuel might happen once if at all.. unlike if you hold the engine at that rpm.. like dyno rpm steps, you found an issue on a dyno. that might not be an issue in real world use.. as the engine would not see that rpm for any lenth of time..
I also understand that every engine combo will cause this to happen at different rpm.. but. we don't race or drive dyno's
on the street/track would this even be an issue at all.. as the harmonics would not have enough time to act on the parts to cause the mini squirt..
in other words running it through the rpm range does this effect power, or is it only when you hold the engine at that rpm.. that when in use, the engine never see's that steady rpm??
now if the drivetrain and tire dia make cruise at 65 an engine rpm of 2800. I can see the need to fix this.. but if not.. you are hunting problems on a dyno that in use. the engine will never see
cause even in high gear, the engine might stay at 2800 of a few tenths if not hundredths of a sec. as it pulls through the rpm range.. making any harmonics fuel squirt unlikely to happen over and over.. it be once and done, if even that.. what was the outcome from a non stepped dyno pull..??

Last edited by gearheadslife; 04-09-2013 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:51 AM
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I had this problem on my 950 HP. It was not because of a harmonic on the umbrella check but rather because of the excellent signal this particular carb had created a sufficient low pressure area in front of the nozzles to make them dribble fuel. A switch to the anti-pullover style nozzles fixed the problem.

Some don't think this is an issue but it bothered me which is why I tried to correct it.
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