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Old 08-22-2011, 07:13 PM
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Holley Carb Adjustment - Tuning Issues

Hi All,

I need to seek the advice of some of you pro engine builder/tuners. I have a custom open roadster with a SB 350.

I am having issues with tuning it correctly and have a stumble/flat spot during mild accelleration. The following are the components of the engine.

SB 350 bored .040 over
Flat top forged pistons
6" forged rods
Comp Cams Extreme Energy advertised duration 294/300
2 - Holley 4160 450 CFM carbs.

I have set all of the floats correctly and adjusted the idle mixture screws using a vacuum gauge. It seems that the best fairly steady vacuum that
I can acheive is -5hg with the idle mix screws set at about 1.5 turns out.

Is this -5hg somewhat normal for what I have described? The idle circuit seems fine and it runs very strong when throttled in park, but as I drive off, it generally stumbles slightly but rarely stalls, and does the same while accelerating while crusing at any speed. I havent checked the power valves to determine what rating they are yet either. Any thoughts, suggestions or next steps would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Mr. Fixit

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Old 08-22-2011, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fixit
Hi All,

I need to seek the advice of some of you pro engine builder/tuners. I have a custom open roadster with a SB 350.

I am having issues with tuning it correctly and have a stumble/flat spot during mild accelleration. The following are the components of the engine.

SB 350 bored .040 over
Flat top forged pistons
6" forged rods
Comp Cams Extreme Energy advertised duration 294/300
2 - Holley 4160 450 CFM carbs.

I have set all of the floats correctly and adjusted the idle mixture screws using a vacuum gauge. It seems that the best fairly steady vacuum that
I can acheive is -5hg with the idle mix screws set at about 1.5 turns out.

Is this -5hg somewhat normal for what I have described? The idle circuit seems fine and it runs very strong when throttled in park, but as I drive off, it generally stumbles slightly but rarely stalls, and does the same while accelerating while crusing at any speed. I havent checked the power valves to determine what rating they are yet either. Any thoughts, suggestions or next steps would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Mr. Fixit
What is your compression? What heads?Ideally the cam should give you 8 in/Hg at 1000 RPM idle speed if it's the Comp Cams Part #12-443-8, Grind #XR294HR-10 . It has over 242/248 degrees intake/exhaust duration @ 0.050" lift and 0.540"/0.0562" lift.

How is the ignition advance set up? You might find that locking the timing at 36 degrees total will work as well as trying to have a short mechanical advance and a huge initial advance. Sneak up on this to be sure it won't detonate!

Unless the carbs were already set up for this cam the power valves are bound to be too high, you need to have them rated below the idle vacuum in gear (if AT). Are the carbs made to be ran as a dual four set up?

You are going to need a loose torque converter so it doesn't try to pull through the brakes at a stop, and you're gonna need a lot of rear gear or an OD tranny w/a low first at the least to make this work. Power brakes? Get a vacuum pump or some other provision for brakes- you don't have enough vacuum to run them otherwise.

If this is going to be a street driven vehicle, get ready for not being able to pass a gas pump- but the problem is going to likely be that you will need more octane than is available at the pump unless you have E85 or access to race gas. And for the engine to be a pretty rough idling mother. It will help if you give a full rundown of the vehicle and everything you know about the engine.

Last edited by cobalt327; 08-22-2011 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 08-23-2011, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
What is your compression? What heads?Ideally the cam should give you 8 in/Hg at 1000 RPM idle speed if it's the Comp Cams Part #12-443-8, Grind #XR294HR-10 . It has over 242/248 degrees intake/exhaust duration @ 0.050" lift and 0.540"/0.0562" lift.

How is the ignition advance set up? You might find that locking the timing at 36 degrees total will work as well as trying to have a short mechanical advance and a huge initial advance. Sneak up on this to be sure it won't detonate!

Unless the carbs were already set up for this cam the power valves are bound to be too high, you need to have them rated below the idle vacuum in gear (if AT). Are the carbs made to be ran as a dual four set up?

You are going to need a loose torque converter so it doesn't try to pull through the brakes at a stop, and you're gonna need a lot of rear gear or an OD tranny w/a low first at the least to make this work. Power brakes? Get a vacuum pump or some other provision for brakes- you don't have enough vacuum to run them otherwise.

If this is going to be a street driven vehicle, get ready for not being able to pass a gas pump- but the problem is going to likely be that you will need more octane than is available at the pump unless you have E85 or access to race gas. And for the engine to be a pretty rough idling mother. It will help if you give a full rundown of the vehicle and everything you know about the engine.
Thank you for your response. Here is what I know.

The compression ratio is 10.5 to 1
I believe that the heads are stock w/ SS valves
Block is 350 4 bolt
You are exactly correct with the cam specs
The distrubutor is a Mallory Unilite
Ignition is MSD 6AL-2
Blaster Coil
Total Advance is 34 Degrees
TCI 2800 stall converter
31" tires
9" Ford Rear w/ 370 gears

The car, which is a t-bucket style with a hand built steel body drives well other than this stumble issue. It has manual disk fronts, stock drum rears and stops well with full control. I am not sure if the carbs were ever set up for this cam since I bought the car years ago and although the engine was professionally built, I have no knowledge of how things were set up so I want to start at square one.

Thanks again for youe assistance..

Mr. Fixit
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Old 08-23-2011, 05:21 AM
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Is this on a Tunnel ram?

The 2800stall is barely enough. The converter is not loose enough You should have a 9" 10" 3500+ stall converter for that cam and multi carb.
A 9" 10" will work much better

You need to dial in the spark advance curve.
You will need a minimum of 26deg at idle
To allow this:
you can shorten-limit the mech advance curve to 10deg or simply lock out the advance and run full locked timing 34-36deg
Up to you. I would try locked out first.

Get some 3.5" or 4.5" power valves.
Remove both carbs and flip them over and reset the pri and sec throttle opening at idle on all 8 barrels. Get them all even .020" +/- transfer slot exposure. Reinstall and give it all the timing it needs at idle.

The idle will be much cleaner and the throttle response much better.

Get a afr gauge to dial in the carb jetting and accelerator pump shot.

Big cams need more initial spark at idle

The lack of initial idle timing causes the carb throttles to be too far open at idle ,creating a off idle flat spot.

You bought the wrong torque converter.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-23-2011 at 05:37 AM.
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Old 08-23-2011, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fixit
Thank you for your response. Here is what I know.

The compression ratio is 10.5 to 1
I believe that the heads are stock w/ SS valves
Block is 350 4 bolt
You are exactly correct with the cam specs
The distrubutor is a Mallory Unilite
Ignition is MSD 6AL-2
Blaster Coil
Total Advance is 34 Degrees
TCI 2800 stall converter
31" tires
9" Ford Rear w/ 370 gears

The car, which is a t-bucket style with a hand built steel body drives well other than this stumble issue. It has manual disk fronts, stock drum rears and stops well with full control. I am not sure if the carbs were ever set up for this cam since I bought the car years ago and although the engine was professionally built, I have no knowledge of how things were set up so I want to start at square one.

Thanks again for youe assistance..

Mr. Fixit
First, I would have to say that's a lot of cam for the street. And using stock iron heads is really holding this combo back from making the kind of power that cam can give you.

The usual order that an engine is tuned is to set up the timing first then deal w/carb problems, because many so called carb probs are actually ignition or ignition timing related.

You mentioned the timing was 34 total. What is the initial timing set at? Does the Unilite have a vacuum advance?

Is the intake a tunnel ram? If so, which one? And if not, what intake- exactly- is it?

Is the linkage progressive?

Take a look and see what power valves are in this deal. That could be the first thing to change if they're opening at idle or too early.

Look at the accelerator pump shooters and see what size they are, and also see what color pump cam is used.

What do the plugs look like, and are you familiar w/"reading" plugs? Get back to us w/as much of the above as you can and we'll help you sort this out.
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Old 08-23-2011, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Is this on a Tunnel ram?

The 2800stall is barely enough. The converter is not loose enough You should have a 9" 10" 3500+ stall converter for that cam and multi carb.
A 9" 10" will work much better

You need to dial in the spark advance curve.
You will need a minimum of 26deg at idle
To allow this:
you can shorten-limit the mech advance curve to 10deg or simply lock out the advance and run full locked timing 34-36deg
Up to you. I would try locked out first.

Get some 3.5" or 4.5" power valves.
Remove both carbs and flip them over and reset the pri and sec throttle opening at idle on all 8 barrels. Get them all even .020" +/- transfer slot exposure. Reinstall and give it all the timing it needs at idle.

The idle will be much cleaner and the throttle response much better.

Get a afr gauge to dial in the carb jetting and accelerator pump shot.

Big cams need more initial spark at idle

The lack of initial idle timing causes the carb throttles to be too far open at idle ,creating a off idle flat spot.

You bought the wrong torque converter.
Yes, this is on a Weiland tunnel ram.

Well, apparently I was mistaken. Since I remember speaking with the TCI technical guys, explaining what I had prior to ordering the converter, they assured me that the Street Fighter is what I needed. Apparently that is the 3000 to 3400 stall, so hopefull that is no issue.

Not being an expert by any means, I set the timing with a timing light to 34 degrees while running the engine at about 2800 rpm steady. I never set it again, or at idle.

The distributor is optical and has no vacuum advance. Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by "locked out"? or can you explain how to do what you are suggesting?

Thank you,

Mr. Fixit
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Old 08-23-2011, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
First, I would have to say that's a lot of cam for the street. And using stock iron heads is really holding this combo back from making the kind of power that cam can give you.

The usual order that an engine is tuned is to set up the timing first then deal w/carb problems, because many so called carb probs are actually ignition or ignition timing related.

You mentioned the timing was 34 total. What is the initial timing set at? Does the Unilite have a vacuum advance?

Is the intake a tunnel ram? If so, which one? And if not, what intake- exactly- is it?

Is the linkage progressive?

Take a look and see what power valves are in this deal. That could be the first thing to change if they're opening at idle or too early.

Look at the accelerator pump shooters and see what size they are, and also see what color pump cam is used.

What do the plugs look like, and are you familiar w/"reading" plugs? Get back to us w/as much of the above as you can and we'll help you sort this out.
I never set the timing at an idle, just at full advance running the engine at about 2800 steady and as previously stated set it at 34 degrees.

No vacuum advance on the dist.

By progressive linkage, do you mean that the second carb would come in later? If so, no, the linkage is not progressive.

I assume that I need to open the float area to see the power valves and accellerator cam, etc?

The last set of plugs that came with the car when I bought it were fouled and black platinum plugs. I opted to replace them with a standard set of Accel R45TS. Also, I gapped them at .045 to start with.

Thank you,

Mr. Fixit
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Old 08-23-2011, 03:15 PM
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You should have bought the TCI "super street fighter" torque converter
( 10" 3500-3800stall)

You need lots of idle timing with that cam. A stock distributor timing curve will not work. Locked out timing refers to eliminating the mechanical advacne curve so the timing is fixed. It does not increase with rpm.

Once "locked out" you set the timing at 34-36deg at idle. It stays at 34-36 when reved up. The tunnel ram and cam need this.

How you go about locking out the distributor advance curve depends on which distributor you got.

This is where you need to start.

Make sure you have the OEM GM starter motor brace/bracket installed

The plugs are fine to get you tuned in. gap at .035"
Later you will want to run a cooler heat range. EG: AC delco R42T

Once you have fixed the distributor and reset the carbs as I outlined it will run much better and won't foul the plugs any more.

Give it time to warm the motor up before setting the idle mix and or driving the car. The tunnel ram needs to warm up a bit.
Keep the idle speed up while its warming up. 1500++.

Once all warmed up it will idle at 900rpm easily.
But the converter may still give you trouble as its the wrong one.

One of the most common mistakes made is selecting the wrong torque converter for the job. Most people look at the advertized rpm range of the camshaft and pick the stall speed. You want the converter to stall 1000 rpm higher than the stated cam starting rpm power range. Your cam don;t even start getting busy till 3000rpm You want a 3500+ stall for that cam.
No its not too much.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-23-2011 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 08-23-2011, 03:24 PM
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Couldn't disagree more about that timing curve. As cobalt said, try more initial in increments. Listen to your torque converter supplier, you told them what you have and your intended use for the car.
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Old 08-23-2011, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
You should have bought the TCI "super street fighter" torque converter
( 10" 3500-3800stall)

You need lots of idle timing with that cam. A stock distributor timing curve will not work. Locked out timing refers to eliminating the mechanical advacne curve so the timing is fixed. It does not increase with rpm.

Once "locked out" you set the timing at 34-36deg at idle. It stays at 34-36 when reved up. The tunnel ram and cam need this.

How you go about locking out the distributor advance curve depends on which distributor you got.

This is where you need to start.

Make sure you have the OEM GM starter motor brace/bracket installed

The plugs are fine to get you tuned in. gap at .035"
Later you will want to run a cooler heat range. EG: AC delco R42T

Once you have fixed the distributor and reset the carbs as I outlined it will run much better and won't foul the plugs any more.

Give it time to warm the motor up before setting the idle mix and or driving the car. The tunnel ram needs to warm up a bit.
Keep the idle speed up while its warming up. 1500++.

Once all warmed up it will idle at 900rpm easily.
But the converter may still give you trouble as its the wrong one.

One of the most common mistakes made is selecting the wrong torque converter for the job. Most people look at the advertized rpm range of the camshaft and pick the stall speed. You want the converter to stall 1000 rpm higher than the stated cam starting rpm power range. Your cam don;t even start getting busy till 3000rpm You want a 3500+ stall for that cam.
No its not too much.
Sounds like I have a direction to go in. The distributor is a Mallory Unilite.

I will try to learn more about it and how to "lock out" the advance.

Thanks,

Mr. Fixit
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Old 08-23-2011, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cool rockin daddy
Couldn't disagree more about that timing curve. As cobalt said, try more initial in increments. Listen to your torque converter supplier, you told them what you have and your intended use for the car.
I do realize that everyone has their own experiences and ways of doing things and really appreciate the input that you all have to offer. Ultimately, what I do with the information is yet to be seen. As when doctor wants to cut our body parts off, we get another opinion, right??

Thanks,

Mr. Fixit
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Old 09-03-2011, 05:22 PM
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Sent Today, 07:15 PM

Greetings Hotrodders,,

Well, I ordered and received the dizzy spring/advance kit and installed the appropriate springs and set the advance to 18 for the heck of it, assembled the dizzy and cranked her up with the timing light and vacuum gauge already connected. I started to advance the initial timing from the prior 10 degrees until the idle increased substantially and it seemed to be running strong. When I looked at the tach it was idleing at 1400, so I adjusted it down to 800 and it seemed to be running very strong and snappy when I wacked the throttle. The vacuum at idle was now 8 instead of the original 5 which seems better

When I looked at the timing with the light at 800 idle speed, I was shocked to see that it was 33 degrees. I took it for a quick ride without going crazy on the throttle and all of the flat spots were gone and it drives great.

I came back and checked the timing at full advance (2100) and it is off of the chart at close to 50 degrees. I went for another quick ride and stomped on the pedal and got what seemed like a quick hesitating chatter when I hit the mechanical secondaries.

I know that I am getting closer now since as it never ran this strong before, but I am uncertain whether to get back into the dizzy and reduce the advance, or consider the jetting of the secondaries to be the problem.

Thoughts to all of this?

Thanks,

Mr. Fixit
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fixit
Sounds like I have a direction to go in. The distributor is a Mallory Unilite.

I will try to learn more about it and how to "lock out" the advance.

Thanks,

Mr. Fixit
Do you have the Mallory unilite # 3748201 distributor??? if so I have the same distributor, I called Mallory about locking out the timing curve for this distributor.. He gave me a part number to a lock out plate for this distributor so that the timing is lock at 36deg .. Here is the part number 46342-01.. The guy at Mallory told me that this plate is something they don't sell much so its not listed in their parts catalog, so he told me to write a check to them and mail it with the part number and put Atten Mary on it.. its $14.95 for the plate shipped

Last edited by 67-4-fun; 09-03-2011 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:39 PM
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Fixit- Unless you had loud mufflers you should have heard some pinging/detonation w/~50 total, and the starter could have been a little (to a lot) sluggish on hot engine restarts w/33 initial.

So be positively 100% sure that the timing line on the damper and the tab are accurately showing you TDC, else you will never know what the total is for sure. You are far better off locking at 36 than ever allowing the engine to run at even 40-plus under a load. But you have to know where TDC is- exactly- to be able to set the timing correctly anywhere else!

DETERMINING TDC will allow you to be sure the timing tab and damper are correct for TDC.

If you are using a dial back timing light, they can be inaccurate. MAKE A TIMING TAPE to see what the total timing is, w/o needing to use a dial back timing light.
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67-4-fun
Do you have the Mallory unilite # 3748201 distributor??? if so I have the same distributor, I called Mallory about locking out the timing curve for this distributor.. He gave me a part number to a lock out plate for this distributor so that the timing is lock at 36deg .. Here is the part number 46342-01.. The guy at Mallory told me that this plate is something they don't sell much so its not listed in their parts catalog, so he told me to write a check to them and mail it with the part number and put Atten Mary on it.. its $14.95 for the plate shipped
Yes, thats the one that I have. Thank you for the information. I wonder if I can just close the gap where the adjustment keys would go thereby eliminating the travel altogether.
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