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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2013, 05:32 AM
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I think you are going to get into trouble with your fans on the side. They will pull your air in, but you are also going to have a hell of a pull on your air at the sides of a vehicle. If you have both fans per chance running at the same time, you may get a more even flow of air at the top coming down because it is essentially one big open area. Now you are throttling that air to a 3'x3' hole.

It's too late to do it now and you'll just have to see how your design works, but if you do have problems, what you may need to do is cover your side fans with a 3' plenum, then run ductwork along the wall towards the bottom so you pull your overspray down and away from the complete vehicle. You could test out your design with a small BBQ grille or Hibachi, some charcoal, and some wet wood. Get your coals hot and put the wet pine wood on it. Set the grill at one end, in the center, then at the other end to see where all of your air flow happens.

I'm interested to see how your design works out.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2013, 06:33 AM
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Kevin45, I agree with you. I WANT to build some type of ductwork that sits on the floor and runs about 10 feet in each direction (fan would be center), but I am running out of cash and patients. maybe in the future.

I really wanted a down side draft paint booth. but I had no place to put it. I would have had to build a huge shop to put it in. that's why I thought I would make the shop and booth one in the same.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2013, 06:44 PM
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I am away at work but my brother in law is still chipping away at it.
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:52 PM
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I am away at work but my brother in law is still chipping away at it.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 09-16-2013, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast41dodge View Post
Nathon, did you use explosion proof fixtures and wiring methods. In my 50+ years in the electrical trade I have seen several home built spray booths go BOOM. The scariest was a guy that had cordoned off half his garage with plastic sheeting. One evening after he had just laid the base coat he went in to get something to drink. The explosion knocked him and his wife down and the house off of its foundation and totally destroyed their son's bedroom (it had a common wall with the garage). By His grace the son was out riding his bike with friends at the time it blew. Just curious.
Good luck on your project. I hope to do my own painting too, once I get the shop completed.
I'm also concerned that this was brought up, but no reply to his concerns! As a retired electrician, I also have wired numerous paint booths, and these are extremely valid concerns! It's not a case of if the lights or fans can cause an explosion, but rather when it will happen!
You could get by with fans remotely mounted outside the booth as pusher fans, instead of pullers, so the paint fumes don't move across the fan motors, but it's not the blade material that's a concern; it's the motors. The junction boxes, and type of motors used can create sparks or arcing, and if paint fumes are moving across the motors when this happens it will not just ignite, it will explode.
The same thing applies to the lights. They need to be explosion proof, and have sealed lenses, plus sealed tubes over the lamps to contain arcs. If the lights were mounted remotely, with sealed covers to keep them isolated from the fumes, they might work and not cause an explosion if wires or ballast shorted.
I hope you reconsider your electrical fans and lighting design, and we don't hear about you on the news later!
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 1971BB427 View Post
I'm also concerned that this was brought up, but no reply to his concerns! As a retired electrician, I also have wired numerous paint booths, and these are extremely valid concerns! It's not a case of if the lights or fans can cause an explosion, but rather when it will happen!
You could get by with fans remotely mounted outside the booth as pusher fans, instead of pullers, so the paint fumes don't move across the fan motors, but it's not the blade material that's a concern; it's the motors. The junction boxes, and type of motors used can create sparks or arcing, and if paint fumes are moving across the motors when this happens it will not just ignite, it will explode.
The same thing applies to the lights. They need to be explosion proof, and have sealed lenses, plus sealed tubes over the lamps to contain arcs. If the lights were mounted remotely, with sealed covers to keep them isolated from the fumes, they might work and not cause an explosion if wires or ballast shorted.
I hope you reconsider your electrical fans and lighting design, and we don't hear about you on the news later!
I have been avoiding this question because I don't feel as though I can explain my thoughts and experience without there being some misunderstanding. I work in the oil and gas production industry (13 years). NO ONE works in more explosive environments than the people working on a production facility. I am very competent at keeping gas out of where I don't want it.
I plan to cover every light with a frame, plexi glass, and caulk. This fixture will be screwed to the wall.
So, look at a picture frame in your home. Now imagine it caulked to the wall and the glass caulked to the frame. Yes I will hate my life when I have to cut the caulk and replace bulbs........ nature of the best.....

In many of the booths I have seen, the fixture itself is not explosion proof. The fixture is mounted outside the booth and shines through a clear "window" illuminating the booth. I will imitate this setup.


Every light switch and plug will be covered and sealed with outdoor covers.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 09-16-2013, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1971BB427 View Post
I'm also concerned that this was brought up, but no reply to his concerns! As a retired electrician, I also have wired numerous paint booths, and these are extremely valid concerns! It's not a case of if the lights or fans can cause an explosion, but rather when it will happen!
You could get by with fans remotely mounted outside the booth as pusher fans, instead of pullers, so the paint fumes don't move across the fan motors, but it's not the blade material that's a concern; it's the motors. The junction boxes, and type of motors used can create sparks or arcing, and if paint fumes are moving across the motors when this happens it will not just ignite, it will explode.
The same thing applies to the lights. They need to be explosion proof, and have sealed lenses, plus sealed tubes over the lamps to contain arcs. If the lights were mounted remotely, with sealed covers to keep them isolated from the fumes, they might work and not cause an explosion if wires or ballast shorted.
I hope you reconsider your electrical fans and lighting design, and we don't hear about you on the news later!
The fans are completely sealed from the factory.

And I don't know why two of my post, posted twice.......

Last edited by nathon001; 09-16-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-16-2013, 04:02 PM
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I wouldn't use glass covers. The lights should have plexiglass lenses that are not prone to breakage. The motors being sealed is only part of the equation. They need to be explosion proof rated, as should the raceways and fittings feeding them. This is a class 1, Division 1, area; the highest level hazardous rating found in the NECA code book, and it requires much more than what you've described. Outdoor covers on switches will NOT stop arcs, or keep vapors from settling inside the devices. These switches should be explosion proof, or mounted outside the area to avoid arcs that are normal to switch operation.
If you work in the industry, and have access to either an on site electrician, or a code book, you should run this by a licensed electrician to get his input on what you're doing.
I'm not trying to put you down, or stop progress; just trying to make sure you don't hurt yourself.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 09-16-2013, 05:16 PM
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I have had electricains and engineers come over to look at my setup. The city inspectors have also come over (I had to get a building permitt to be covered by my insurance). I have gotten green lights by all of them.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathon001 View Post
I have had electricains and engineers come over to look at my setup. The city inspectors have also come over (I had to get a building permitt to be covered by my insurance). I have gotten green lights by all of them.
I'm not sure what to say to this? I'd assume it's because you're not done, or the electrical inspector hasn't seen the finished switches, and wiring methods. I've never heard or experienced an electrical inspector who would accept plugs and switches with outdoors covers on them in a hazardous location environment.
Or I guess the subject of "use" for this structure has yet to come up. If you don't have it listed as a "paint booth" on permits, then they're simply looking at it as a nicely lit structure, with good air movement. If the painting equipment was in there, I'd guess their attitude would completely change.
Class 1 Dvi. 1 switch enclosures are machined steel boxes fed with ridged pipe, or rated flex raceways. I can't imagine how an inspector would allow any other wiring methods in a paint booth. I'm puzzled to say the least. These aren't local code differences, these are national codes for Class 1 Div. 1.
Class 1 Div. 1 is any area where explosive vapors are present during normal operation, as in a paint booth. These are the requirements of these areas:

"1. Explosion-Proof Enclosures
Article 100 of the NEC provides the following definition for Explosion-Proof Apparatus:
Apparatus is enclosed in a case that is capable of withstanding an explosion of a specified
gas or vapor that may occur within it and of preventing the ignition of a specified gas or
vapor surrounding the enclosure by sparks, flashes, or explosion of the gas or vapor within,
and which operates at such an external temperature that a surrounding flammable
atmosphere will not be ignited thereby.
Type 7 enclosures are designed to meet explosion-proof requirements. They are for indoor
use in locations classified as Class I, Groups A, B, C, or D. Type 7 enclosures are designed
to be capable of withstanding the pressures resulting from an internal explosion of
specified gases, and contain such an explosion sufficiently that an explosive gas-air
mixture existing in the atmosphere surrounding the enclosure will not be ignited. Enclosed
heat generating devices are designed not to cause external surfaces to reach temperatures
capable of igniting explosive gas-air mixtures in the surrounding atmosphere."

"3. Conduit and Cable Seals
The NEC requires sealing each conduit run entering an enclosure that contains apparatus
which may produce arcs, sparks, or high temperatures. These seals are to be installed
within 18 inches of the enclosure. This prevents the propagation of flames and explosive
pressures from the interior of an enclosure into the conduit system."

There are no exceptions that will allow romex wiring or non rated raceways.
"1910.307(d)
Conduits. All conduits shall be threaded and shall be made wrench-tight. Where it is impractical to make a threaded joint tight, a bonding jumper shall be utilized."

Last edited by 1971BB427; 09-17-2013 at 11:43 AM.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2013, 01:41 PM
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1971BB427, this is why I avoided this topic. Everyone has an opinion, and their opinion is the best. I work in gas rich environments every day. Some are so dangerous they WILL ignite at 70*. I know the laws. I am tested on every job I go on. I cannot take short cuts while working for a client (I would be arrested by coast guard). I will be fine, promise.

Despite what you all are thinking, I am a very safe person, at everything I do. Explosions will not accure unless the conditions are perfect. I do have a gas monitoring device that flashes when LEL is reached. This device will be mounted in the booth while painting. When the lights start flashing work stops! If it becomes a constant problem, changes will be made!

The inspectors are not stupid. They know what my intentions are. I have made changes to please the inspector (because they know). My home is not a business. Like you said, itís just a nice garage. Anyone is allowed to paint 2 cars per year in garage.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2013, 02:57 PM
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The inspectors are inspecting it as a RESIDENTIAL out building. Did you pull a permit for an auto paint booth, or a residential garage? They aren't applying article 500 because it's not a commercial paint booth. You probably would not be approved for a commercial paint booth in a residential area either. Just because the inspectors give you the green light doesn't mean there aren't some real dangers there. They inspect to the permit type listed. Pull the inspector aside and ask ''If this was a commercial paint booth, would it pass?''. Stay safe.
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:53 PM
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You guys will have to wait for the finished product.

All you want is a pretty sticker that says explosion proof or intrinsically safe.

I am still light years away from what most people do.
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:55 PM
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the is no zoning restrictions where I live. it is open zoning.
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Old 09-19-2013, 07:00 PM
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the is no zoning restrictions where I live. it is open zoning.
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