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Old 03-11-2012, 11:22 PM
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honeing problems

im honeing a .30 over cleveland block. it sat in storage for probly 10 years with pistons in but lubed. im honing the block and ive noticed on several cylinders theres like a pitted surface in some very small spots. so i started with a stone hone figuring that that would take a grand or so off take care of the pitting and wich in most it did then finished it off with a ball hone. but on two cylinders the pitting wont come out if been checking each time after each attempt to hone with a snap gauge ( i know not the most accurate ) ive also tryed dyeing the spots with a marker and the marker will come off the pitted looking area first and leave a small amount on the non pitted area. ive tryed this with both stone and ball hone to have the same result. id have the block bored but i just got the pistons and the crank balanced and that was a pretty penny. ive also dont kringe , but ive also tryed to take a peice of emery cloth by hand to this area and it wont go away and yes i dyed it to make sure that i was correct that it was a high spot. has anyone ever seen or heard of this and how do i correct it with out boring the block or over honing.

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Old 03-12-2012, 07:47 AM
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I did the same

we ran a 302 chevy on a dirt track with pitted cylinders. last race of the season , only block we had left It blew the last lap just before the finish line. We took it apart and it blew on the cylinder wall that had the pits. Bore it and save the cleveland block. they dont moke these anylonger
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inkfreak1976
im honeing a .30 over cleveland block. it sat in storage for probly 10 years with pistons in but lubed. im honing the block and ive noticed on several cylinders theres like a pitted surface in some very small spots. so i started with a stone hone figuring that that would take a grand or so off take care of the pitting and wich in most it did then finished it off with a ball hone. but on two cylinders the pitting wont come out if been checking each time after each attempt to hone with a snap gauge ( i know not the most accurate ) ive also tryed dyeing the spots with a marker and the marker will come off the pitted looking area first and leave a small amount on the non pitted area. ive tryed this with both stone and ball hone to have the same result. id have the block bored but i just got the pistons and the crank balanced and that was a pretty penny. ive also dont kringe , but ive also tryed to take a peice of emery cloth by hand to this area and it wont go away and yes i dyed it to make sure that i was correct that it was a high spot. has anyone ever seen or heard of this and how do i correct it with out boring the block or over honing.
Admit that you screwed up and take the block to the machine shop. If it can be saved as is, great. If it has to be bored to use larger pistons, that will be the cost of your mistake. Everyone on this board has had to eat a mistake or two in the course of their experience.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by techinspector1
Admit that you screwed up and take the block to the machine shop. If it can be saved as is, great. If it has to be bored to use larger pistons, that will be the cost of your mistake. Everyone on this board has had to eat a mistake or two in the course of their experience.
i didnt screw nothing up, i got the block this way. and the pits didnt appear untill after i started to hone the block. and why would the dye/ marker come off the defect looking spot and leave the area around still dyed if it wasent a high spot?
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:09 PM
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OK.I know some people may disagree with this.
20 years ago i built a 396 BBC with much the same problem,i put it in a 70 chevelle I had,ran it for 4 years,took the motor out n sold it to a guy that had a wrecker co. in Crestview Fl.
He put the engine in a wrecker he had,ran it for7 years,took the engine out n brought it to me,I stuck it in a CK10 n punched it .030 n redone the valves,heads n lined bored it n gave it back to him,he put it in a 78 Camaro for his son.
I saw the same camaro last year with the same motor, still runnin strong.
Nobody screws up trying something, some things work n some dont,from what you r saying, you can see it,but cant feel it with your fingernail.
Is that right?
If you are not going to race this car on a regular basis,i think I would just put it together n run it.
I am not trying to tell you what to do,only what i did!
This of course wouldnt work for an all out race motor,also, I wouldnt spray it.
But man, i think it will run fine!
Al
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topwrench
OK.I know some people may disagree with this.
20 years ago i built a 396 BBC with much the same problem,i put it in a 70 chevelle I had,ran it for 4 years,took the motor out n sold it to a guy that had a wrecker co. in Crestview Fl.
He put the engine in a wrecker he had,ran it for7 years,took the engine out n brought it to me,I stuck it in a CK10 n punched it .030 n redone the valves,heads n lined bored it n gave it back to him,he put it in a 78 Camaro for his son.
I saw the same camaro last year with the same motor, still runnin strong.
Nobody screws up trying something, some things work n some dont,from what you r saying, you can see it,but cant feel it with your fingernail.
Is that right?
If you are not going to race this car on a regular basis,i think I would just put it together n run it.
I am not trying to tell you what to do,only what i did!
This of course wouldnt work for an all out race motor,also, I wouldnt spray it.
But man, i think it will run fine!
Al
i can feel it just fine its where the pistons were stuck in the walls while it was sitting, ive dyed the area and the spot in question feels like a high spot and when dyed and honed the area is shiny while there is still dye left around the area. this is where im thinking that theres a high spot.
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:35 PM
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ok i grabbed a bore gauge from a freind and it is a depresion but theres no sharp edges. the bore gauge says .0005 differance from the size of the bore. but trusting my instincts im figureing that its .001 deep, should i hone or leave it. its in the top third of the cylinder. this engine wont be seeing heavy duty track conditions. mainly street use and some stop light jumping.
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:42 PM
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Wheather you leave it or not is up to you,but I would quit honing the thing.
1/2 a thousnds diff in the bore aint squat for a streeter.
When you bore out a block without a torque plate and bolt the head on it and warm it up the diff is a lot more than 1/2 a thousands.
I would put it together!
Tell you something else a lot of people dont realize,take a Chevy or any engine with a known amount of torque and hang a weight out a foot from the front end equal to the amount of torque output,try to turn it with a 3/4 raatchet.
Guarantee you youll hardly be able to turn the crank!
So for a street engine that will hardly,if ever see semi plasmatic temps on the piston head or will not ever see ring flutter,dont worry too much about this.
But here is another suggestion.
Quit Honing!
Wqash the cylinder with WD 40 or similar and then take a pressure washer and wash all your bores really good also the whole block,oil passages etc.
Theres gotta be a lot of crap in there after all that honing.
2 get rid of the ball hone(throw it as far as you can and then bury it)
If you must hone something use a Sunnen expandable(adjustable hone) with wipers and pu a 45* crosshatch on the cyl/
But quit honing,it is probably doin damage at this point!
Check your ring end gap and I suggest you use cast iron rings on this motor,faster break in and youll be happier than with Moly (only on this app)
I always like Moly but for this deal i would use cast n go just a little above the narrow end of the spec at the 2nd ring stay to the wider end of the gap at the first one.
and dont forget oil pressure Fords like plenty of oil pressure 30 psi plus Idling with motor warmed up...
Hope this helps
Please let me know how it turns out.
Would like to know either way you do it
Al

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Old 03-12-2012, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inkfreak1976
im honeing a .30 over cleveland block. it sat in storage for probly 10 years with pistons in but lubed. im honing the block and ive noticed on several cylinders theres like a pitted surface in some very small spots. so i started with a stone hone figuring that that would take a grand or so off take care of the pitting and wich in most it did then finished it off with a ball hone. but on two cylinders the pitting wont come out if been checking each time after each attempt to hone with a snap gauge ( i know not the most accurate ) ive also tryed dyeing the spots with a marker and the marker will come off the pitted looking area first and leave a small amount on the non pitted area. ive tryed this with both stone and ball hone to have the same result. id have the block bored but i just got the pistons and the crank balanced and that was a pretty penny. ive also dont kringe , but ive also tryed to take a peice of emery cloth by hand to this area and it wont go away and yes i dyed it to make sure that i was correct that it was a high spot. has anyone ever seen or heard of this and how do i correct it with out boring the block or over honing.
This looks like you found an inclusion, this fortunately isn't too common but they do happen. Somebody probably had trouble with this engine and oil consumption from day one. An attempt was made to fix it by boring 30 over and it still wouldn't clean, that happens, so it got parked till you came along as 30 is about as far as thin wall blocks will accept as an overbore.

The picture of this area appears to have a couple cracks coming from this into the wall as well. Given the rarity of a Cleveland block, I'd take it too a damn good machine shop, not the one you bought it from 'cause they skunked you already, to see what it would cost to sleeve this jug an any others that need it. Be prepared sleeving isn't cheap but for a rare block may be less expensive than an aftermarket replacement.

I feel for you, but this ain't ever gonna come up clean with emery cloth or honing, you've got to get to a new quality surface and without sleeving that doesn't appear possible.

Bogie
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Old 03-12-2012, 07:36 PM
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Do what topwrench says and you'll be alright for a stock street engine ( Saw this a lot at ford dealerships)! never use a ball glaze breaker to hone you just screw up the cylinder. If you had to you could put your biggest diameter piston in that cylinder and open the cylinder diameter .001 With a good hone or have a machine shop do it! And your piston clearance should still be within spec! Fords used to have +.001 and +.002 and +.005 rings for just this reason! I dont know if you can get em any more?? And If you have to sleeving 2 cylinders isnt too expensive!

But top wrench gave you good advice!

Jester

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Old 03-12-2012, 08:08 PM
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Those dont look like cracks to me ,they look like scratches from a bore gauge or snap gauge!

Jester
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbogie
This looks like you found an inclusion, this fortunately isn't too common but they do happen. Somebody probably had trouble with this engine and oil consumption from day one. An attempt was made to fix it by boring 30 over and it still wouldn't clean, that happens, so it got parked till you came along as 30 is about as far as thin wall blocks will accept as an overbore.

The picture of this area appears to have a couple cracks coming from this into the wall as well. Given the rarity of a Cleveland block, I'd take it too a damn good machine shop, not the one you bought it from 'cause they skunked you already, to see what it would cost to sleeve this jug an any others that need it. Be prepared sleeving isn't cheap but for a rare block may be less expensive than an aftermarket replacement.

I feel for you, but this ain't ever gonna come up clean with emery cloth or honing, you've got to get to a new quality surface and without sleeving that doesn't appear possible.

Bogie
those arnt cracks there marks from a bore gauge, the block was magged if there was cracks it woulda shown up, i got it in trade for building another clevland for a freind of mine. so with the block i didnt get screwed. ive talked to my machenist wich i have a very good relationship with told me to not worry about it given the numbers of the imperfection, and he knows how picky i am about triple checking things. he said no power outers, to run it for a season and pull the heads and check for any damage to the cylinder if there isnt any it would be fine, he also said that since ive already got plasma molly rings that there hard enough to platuo the imperfection possibly. if not we would talk about going another .010 over size.
so now its at the shop being hot tanked.
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Old 03-13-2012, 01:17 AM
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I got some info for you to consider. The advice to "to run it for a season and pull the heads and check for any damage to the cylinder if there isnt any it would be fine" is not a good plan. Run it and then see if it is screwed up? Who does that?

As for "he also said that since ive already got plasma molly rings that there hard enough to platuo the imperfection possibly"- I can tell you right now this is not good advise at all. The idea that plasma moly rings will "plateau" anything ain't happening- the moly inlay/application is not harder than the cast iron of the ring. It's not chrome moly as some guys think- it's molybdenum disulfide, totally different substance, and is there to reduce scuffing and to help the rings to quickly break in.

Bottom line: You have a sand pocket, or inclusion as Bogie correctly pointed out. No amount of honing will rid the cylinder of it, so stop trying- it ain't gonna happen. Bore the cylinder to whatever oversize is needed to get a good surface w/o the inclusion.

And I'd be going to a different machinist.

BTW, the way it looks, there's no crosshatch to the honing, looks like a zero angle. If the angle is as shallow as it looks, it would never break in right anyway.

Quote:
...no power outers...
Huh?
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inkfreak1976
he said no power outers, to run it for a season and pull the heads and check for any damage to the cylinder if there isnt any it would be fine, he also said that since ive already got plasma molly rings that there hard enough to platuo the imperfection possibly. if not we would talk about going another .010 over size.
so now its at the shop being hot tanked.
Run it for the season? Is this a race engine?
Is it a claimer engine?

A couple of us mentioned repairs to get by with on a street driven car!!! If it was a daily grocery getter I'd put it together and run it! But if its a race engine thats a different ball game! You mentioned balancing was very expensive and you didnt want to spend more money I thought you were on a tight budget and needed transportation LOL!! If thats a race engine? I gave you bad advice, and your machinist gave you worse. Your machinist said molly ring are hard that should have rung a bell that his advice is a little off!! and do you mean power adders? (power outers).You also say your machinist will pull the heads and look at it after a season for damage, you dont have to, its apart now and you have damage !!!

Dont read into this, as my being offensive!!! Im not,I'm trying to help.

Jester
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:58 AM
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Jester, I agree that if this was a DD grocery getter that he could probably get by OK by working around the sand pocket/inclusion deal (and both you guys gave good advice), but you can't know what you don't know, since he just now mentioned this is going to be raced somehow. Just don't want you thinking I was being an ***.
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