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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2012, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
There are restoration shops who wouldn't dream of using plastic filler too. You are right though, the shim should be a last resort. I know I bend hinges to correct it too, however when a mistake has been made and the car is painted and done, a shim properly placed just isn't that big of a deal. As I have said, the car has STACKS of shims to make fenders fit at the factory, STACKS I have seen a half inch of shims on original cars. So a neatly placed shim to make your hood or trunk fit perfect just isn't a big deal. When I put my hood back on after having the hinges powder coated the back was high for some reason, I couldn't adjust it down without removing the hood and hinges to hog out holes or something so lowering it with a shim was fine with me.



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there's 2-3 areas on fenders that must have shims, but do you see factory shims on the hoods and decks?

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
there's 2-3 areas on fenders that must have shims, but do you see factory shims on the hoods and decks?
Not on these cars because frankly they didn't care about getting them perfect, they fit like CRAP from the factory by todays standards. The stacks of shims on the fenders, heck, that was just to get them "close enough" and they were MILES, hundreds of MILES from the standards we have became accustom to.

I have seen shims on late model car trunk hinges though. But it is a moot point because the assembly process and the design of the car has all but eliminated ANY shims what so ever. There isn't even a slot in the friggin holes on most cars hinges! They bolt them DIRECTLY on with no alignment what so ever and they fit perfect.

But getting back to the old cars. I have owned a number of 65 Skylarks and they all had these big dents on the other side of the trunk lid in the structure right in the middle between the hinges. I had to own a few of them before I realized this wasn't a coincidence but these dents were put there by the factory to apparently hammering up the structure or by blocking it and shutting the lid (as I showed to bend a hinge) to bend up the trunk in the middle to make it fit! So should I have not repaired these dents in my trunk lid? That is after all how the factory did it and I want to do it the same as the factory right?

Henry, every cars build is not the same. If I was doing a nut job all out restoration I wouldn't even think about using shims, but for your average car like my Gran Sport, so the heck what if there is a shim that NO ONE is going to see unless you point it out to them. On my trunk lid after I installed the rubbers it was a little high, I painted a 1/16" shim and put it there, you can't see it unless you WANT to, and the trunk fits **** which is what everyone is going to see.

Brian
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 08:55 AM
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I hear ya. I was just taught differently on hoods n decks.

btw, I once had a guy that wanted a dart completely done and he requested that I leave one small ding on the roof cause he said it rolled out of factory like that. He has pics and everything to back it up too. thought that was kind of odd but cool. Never got the job but sometime am reminded of his request.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
I hear ya. I was just taught differently on hoods n decks.
I use all the things I have been taught over the years. Every car is different, and there are a lot of ways to get something done. I was taught to use what you know, there are MANY different thoughts on how to do this stuff.

You mentioned "good restoration shops" wouldn't put a shim there, but most "good restoration shops" are covering cars in bondo and re-building them with parts from China, the car wasn't made like that either!

If you had been taught by Randy Fergison who use to be a regular here you wouldn't be using plastic filler! If you do some searches in on the forum you will find where he made new fenders from aluminum for an Impala like in your video! He wouldn't dream of covering a panel in filler like most of us do. This is great, but is it reality? MOST people who come to these forums this stuff is out of their everyday world and they need realistic solutions not something that takes years to learn.

Besides as I said, if they understand WHAT this shim does, that can help them understand what to bend or tweek to accomplish the same thing without the shim. A shim by the way that takes 13.8 seconds to install or remove, it isn't a big deal.

It's like I have said for years to the home hobbiest, don't worry about perfect get the f-ing thing done and get out on the road with a smile on your face!

Brian
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 10:21 AM
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Brian, I'm a total newby to panel alignment, so......I spent at least 2 minutes putting my shims in, but I was moving slow
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
I use all the things I have been taught over the years. Every car is different, and there are a lot of ways to get something done. I was taught to use what you know, there are MANY different thoughts on how to do this stuff.

You mentioned "good restoration shops" wouldn't put a shim there, but most "good restoration shops" are covering cars in bondo and re-building them with parts from China, the car wasn't made like that either!

If you had been taught by Randy Fergison who use to be a regular here you wouldn't be using plastic filler! If you do some searches in on the forum you will find where he made new fenders from aluminum for an Impala like in your video! He wouldn't dream of covering a panel in filler like most of us do. This is great, but is it reality? MOST people who come to these forums this stuff is out of their everyday world and they need realistic solutions not something that takes years to learn.

Besides as I said, if they understand WHAT this shim does, that can help them understand what to bend or tweek to accomplish the same thing without the shim. A shim by the way that takes 13.8 seconds to install or remove, it isn't a big deal.

It's like I have said for years to the home hobbiest, don't worry about perfect get the f-ing thing done and get out on the road with a smile on your face!

Brian
sure thing, Shimmy Jimmy.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by evolvo View Post
Brian, I'm a total newby to panel alignment, so......I spent at least 2 minutes putting my shims in, but I was moving slow
I think his 13.8SEconds is per the flat rate book which is based on an experienced bodyman's average time...some are quicker.

As for my experience, Brian and BDBM have kept me from hogging out holes to make panels fit. I take pride that each vehicle I do has a lot fewer shims than it arrived with. I strive to avoid the stack of shims in highly visible places. I try to bend the tabs to compensate for what the shim would have done if proper adjustment doesn't do it initially. Tech69 is steadily getting on the list with them two as well.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 11:17 AM
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I wish there was an easy way to bend tabs for fenders. That's for sure.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 11:20 AM
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Brian, I'm a total newby to panel alignment, so......I spent at least 2 minutes putting my shims in, but I was moving slow
LOLOLOL, thanks for chuckle this morning.

Brian
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cyclopsblown34 View Post
I think his 13.8SEconds is per the flat rate book which is based on an experienced bodyman's average time...some are quicker.

As for my experience, Brian and BDBM have kept me from hogging out holes to make panels fit. I take pride that each vehicle I do has a lot fewer shims than it arrived with. I strive to avoid the stack of shims in highly visible places. I try to bend the tabs to compensate for what the shim would have done if proper adjustment doesn't do it initially. Tech69 is steadily getting on the list with them two as well.
The SUPER COOL thing about this stuff if you can go as far as you want! There is NO limit to how much detail you can put into it! You can go to a show where the ultimate, zillion dollar car is there with the 12 foot trophy and you CAN pick it apart! You could go further than they did, there is NO LIMIT to how "perfect" you can make a car.

On those tabs, you could fit the fender and then make a template so you could then remove the fender, cut the tab off and re-position it so it needed no shims at all!

It depends on what YOU or your customers expectations are. Heck, the other day we took a 2000 Camry, put it up on the rack pulled the rad support back to somewhere near square and I used my tin snips to trim away the fender so the corner lamp would fit. This isn't the "kind of work" we do, but it met the customers expectations to save his car from the crusher.

I have blocked and buffed every single spec of texture in the paint from a frame of a car! It all depends on what the expectations of the cars owner is.

Brian
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
The SUPER COOL thing about this stuff if you can go as far as you want! There is NO limit to how much detail you can put into it! You can go to a show where the ultimate, zillion dollar car is there with the 12 foot trophy and you CAN pick it apart! You could go further than they did, there is NO LIMIT to how "perfect" you can make a car.

On those tabs, you could fit the fender and then make a template so you could then remove the fender, cut the tab off and re-position it so it needed no shims at all!

It depends on what YOU or your customers expectations are. Heck, the other day we took a 2000 Camry, put it up on the rack pulled the rad support back to somewhere near square and I used my tin snips to trim away the fender so the corner lamp would fit. This isn't the "kind of work" we do, but it met the customers expectations to save his car from the crusher.

I have blocked and buffed every single spec of texture in the paint from a frame of a car! It all depends on what the expectations of the cars owner is.

Brian
I'm not smart enough to make a template, I just cut, bend, weld and hope it's right. Then I cut it apart and redo it. I agree that one person can pick apart another person's work. After rereading what I posted, I felt it could be read wrong, it was meant as kudos to you, DeadBodyMan and Tech69. I've learned a lot from the first two since joining and Henry the last few months. I'm far from an expert and there's several ways to do what some of us do as a hobby/part time job and others do as a career.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 04:43 PM
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LOL, here's a "Basics of Basics" on template making.

Autobodystore.com - Templates For Accurate Cutting and Drilling Sheet Metal

Brian
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2012, 09:05 AM
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Awesome! I have been fighting with my Camaro 1972 hood after rebuilding the car and I just cannot get the hood low enough on the firewall side. I will try this asap!


http://www.willys38.com/images/DSC02047.jpg
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2012, 10:16 AM
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Awesome! I have been fighting with my Camaro 1972 hood after rebuilding the car and I just cannot get the hood low enough on the firewall side. I will try this asap!


http://www.willys38.com/images/DSC02047.jpg
BEFORE you put the shim (it's the last restort) FIRST see if you have rotated the hinge back as far as it will go. VERY seldom have I seen a hinge that won't rotate back to lower the hood far enough.

Here is a "Basics of Basics" on panel alignment.

cowl hood adjustment - Team Camaro Tech

Understand, we are not "lowering" the hinge, that will NOT lower it as low in the rear as rotating it back! Try to rotate it back before you shim it.



Brian
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2012, 11:20 AM
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How did you know I was fighting this on my car? It's exactly the issue I'm having. After I close the hood I can push it down into position. Guess I'll give it a shot tomorrow, hope it works. Just curious, would putting the shim at the other bolt "shim it up"?
before you get out shims and start rotating anything try to use lubricant spray and spray all the joints on your hinges and work it up and down for a couple of minutes. This is the most common problem with old hinges..

I didn't want to say it before but it could have been also Brian's problem with his freshly powder coated hinges. That's like a guaranteed problem after powder coating hinges. They always seem VERY stiff and as a result they won't lay down all the way.

Last edited by tech69; 09-12-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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