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Old 03-01-2013, 07:45 PM
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how bad is it for a shop to use aftermarket when getting paid for OEM parts?

long story, my last job fired me after I started asking for my tax form. they got me the tax form LATE and fired me the next week. I've always felt the reason was because-uuummmm, I'm not a meth head and if professional work is expected from me I expect at least a little of the same from my employer. I don't think they liked that. So, my friend that I've grown close to is NOW GOING THRU THE SAME THING at the same job and got a 2 week notice after asking for his tax form (LATE). So now he's got all kinds of stuff jotted down to take them down. One is getting money for OEM parts but buying aftermarkets, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. I recall working their for 3 years and they never asked me if I needed a new mask but when I asked for my tax form all of a sudden they offer it and finally got gloves I would ask for. They'd also make horrible estimates charge around 10-15k and then get mad at me and now him for TRYING to do the right thing in terms of hidden rust. Is it true that in CA that the BAR states that if a customer pays 10K or above that all the rust that's seen has to be fixed? Just wondering cause my friend asked me to go down to The BAR and labor board to give a statement in his behalf. Just trying to help a friend that's getting screwed . If anyone from CA knows about this stuff please chime in.

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Old 03-01-2013, 08:49 PM
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Don't know about the USA, but here, if you say you are using OEM, and get paid for OEM, and sub jobber parts, that is considered fraud......
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:19 PM
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Can you say Embezzlement. Total scam for this company using aftermarket parts & People paid for OEM. The late tax forms are another charge. Let's play a game of Pool, And Rack up them Charges!!! Total Fraud here!!
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:32 PM
put up or shut up
 

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he's a great talker so he'd sound pretty convincing in making the workers sound like we're lying but his reputation proceeds him and as he left LA to move here he screwed A LOT of people in his former career. There's tons of reviews on the net about him and they are ALL BAD! That's the thing with honesty, when you are honest you have nothing to hide. It's great, isn't it?

As far as the cars, I recall two cars and the time frame in which some fraud was being done to insurance companies. My friend recalls a couple cars too.
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:19 AM
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It is very clear, very, very clear what is legal and what is not legal according to the BAR in California. Very simple, if it's on the work order, it must be performed on the car exactly the same or it is fraud, plain and simple. If on the work order it says and OEM part was installed and an AM part was installed instead, it is FRAUD and he is in deep poopoo. There is no gray area, zero, if it says a part was replaced and it was repaired instead, it is FRAUD and he is in deep poopoo.

That is what it comes down to, what the repair order says MUST have been performed EXACLY as written.

On the rust on repairs over 10k, there is NOTHING, not one single word written in the law like that. And in fact there is NO LAW of any kind that has anything to do with "quality" of repair. Quality after all is subjective. If you were to sue over poor quality in civil court there is a certain "expectation" of quality that the judge could rule on, but in criminal court there is no such thing, quality is subjective and there is no room for subjective in law, it must be black and white right or wrong. So there is nothing that can be done about poor quality work, it has to be written very clearly in the repair order what is to be done on the car. If it is written in the repair order "remove all rust on car", then yes, it says it and then it must be done. If it's a paint job and it doesn't say specifically where rust is to be removed and replaced with new metal, the repairer can do anything he wants, and I do mean ANYTHING. But if it isn't written that way you could fill rust with bondo and paint over it and be perfectly legal.

If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. ~Mark Twain

Brian
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:47 AM
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thanks, Martin. I kind of knew most of this though. I did take two estimating classes in which we were drilled on this and did live estimates. The class was a lot funner than any body class I've ever taken.

On the rust thing, I think I gotta look into it further. I either heard it from an I car teacher or maybe even a BAR employee. I was told it was automatically assumed all rust under any surface you paint needs to be rust free once a certain dollar amount is paid on the job. Can't remember if it's 10 or 15 k.

They've also done a lot of fraud in pulling. A simple silverado job for example...OEM bumper and 2 hours pull time on horns...no pulls were made and taiwan bumper. I'd say if someone is willing to do that once than they'd do it again. Some of us would never think of such a thing, including myself. Just greedy I tell ya. Anyhow, it would be very easy for the BAR to set them up with a car and an estimator that allows them to use any oem part they ask for, then go over their work and ring up the fines-lol After getting a few things of mine stolen, I have no room in my heart for thieves. People like that just bring you down.

Last edited by tech69; 03-02-2013 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:22 AM
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There is no rule for "quality" of repair such at the rust issue, zero.

I got a quick education back a number of years ago when I helped the BAR close a guy down. What ticks me off is he reopened at another location under his wife's name.

The issue of "quality" blew me away, but if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. How can you ever contract "quality". What would be the difference on paper between the paint job on one of the cars that was in the Autorama that came from where you work and from Maaco? Unless it was broken down into every step that is done, how could you possibly put into a contract the difference? You could right a line on the repair order "cut and buff", you could do that to both jobs, you could put "prime and block" so what, you could have that on both, how good it is primed and blocked is subjective. You could put remove all orange peel, again, you could do that on both, would that make both jobs the same?

This job that I was involved with, the BAR literally towed it out of the shop I am working in up to the main office in Sacramento, from what I understand they were using it in training!

My friend who I took to the Goodguys in the Rambler who is in the wheel chair, he is the owner of the van that I worked with BAR with. His wife was driving it and got T boned bad. It was a full size Chevy van, about 1998ish. On the side between the rear wheel and the drivers door it was pushed in so bad that the floor was wrinkled up about two feet in with severe damage the first 8-12 inches. All the vertical supports along the side were destroyed. I forget why in the hell he brought it to the shop he did but he is easily "led" if you get my point. So this con-artist got the job. My friend knew he was getting raped and didn't like what he was seeing and asked me to go pickup the van. I was told by the insurance company as per BAR to just pickup the van and get it out of there and they would handle it. I went and did so, it was a friggin mess! We got it back to where I work and pulled it apart. The floor was STILL bent in three for four inches with expanding foam between the floor and the quarter! He replaced the quarter and a couple of the vert supports, that was it!

The repair order had about ten lines tops, if it was written properly it would have had about 60 or 80. This is what got him big time, the BAR could do NOTHING about things like that floor and expandable foam, that is "quality" and on the work order it said "repair floor", there was NOTHING they could do about it. What nailed him was that he charged for replacing all the vert supports but only changed a couple. Those parts being on the RO and not on the car were really the only thing they could nail him on. That an a number of other things that got done but weren't on the order like removing windows and that sort of thing.

Simply put, the repair order has to reflect what the consumer has received in goods and service. It has to reflect every single thing, legally if they left out replacing a light bulb they are breaking the law. I know this because a guy I know with a shop was warned by the BAR over giving a light bulb for free! No kidding, a long time customer came to his shop and he walked out in the parking lot and installed a turn signal bulb for him and said thank you no charge good buy. This customer contacted someone at BAR to tell them what a great guy this was and how he should be phrased for treating people well, he was contacted and warned by the BAR that EVERY CUSTOMER MUST have a repair order showing the goods and services received, PERIOD.


In working with the insurance, the van was totaled and my buddy got enough money to go out and buy another van.

And I agree with you, I have no room for a thief in my world, nothing is lower than a thief and a lier (same thing really).

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 03-02-2013 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:01 AM
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the Brian, you are in the wrong field of work, the insurance co. lie and theive..

writing for a/m parts knowing full well. they are junk..
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:08 AM
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"Junk" is subjective! It is a fine line I agree. We use some AM parts, using an AM part is no different than giving the job to the worse bodyman in the shop. The guy does the filler work like crap, it isn't as good as if it had never been hit, but it's "repaired". It isn't "repaired" to my liking but it's "repaired".

All I can do is what I have control over, I fight for it every day and send back AM parts because they aren't to my standards every day. Often to tell you the truth there isn't much of a difference at all and will do the job just fine.

I don't see you down at the dealer buying a water pump for your daily driver, you are buying it from a parts store in town, same goes for brakes, wheel bearings and the radiator, you aren't down at the dealer buying these things are you?

Brian
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
"Junk" is subjective! It is a fine line I agree. We use some AM parts, using an AM part is no different than giving the job to the worse bodyman in the shop. The guy does the filler work like crap, it isn't as good as if it had never been hit, but it's "repaired". It isn't "repaired" to my liking but it's "repaired".

All I can do is what I have control over, I fight for it every day and send back AM parts because they aren't to my standards every day. Often to tell you the truth there isn't much of a difference at all and will do the job just fine.

I don't see you down at the dealer buying a water pump for your daily driver, you are buying it from a parts store in town, same goes for brakes, wheel bearings and the radiator, you aren't down at the dealer buying these things are you?

Brian
no no I buy the ac delco starter the delco alt, the ac delco w/p
delco plug wires. autolite plug wires(wifes ford)
trw parts for the 99 grand mark as they are FACTORY ORIGINAL parts..
so yes I use factory replacements.. when aval.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:46 PM
put up or shut up
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
"Junk" is subjective! It is a fine line I agree. We use some AM parts, using an AM part is no different than giving the job to the worse bodyman in the shop. The guy does the filler work like crap, it isn't as good as if it had never been hit, but it's "repaired". It isn't "repaired" to my liking but it's "repaired".

All I can do is what I have control over, I fight for it every day and send back AM parts because they aren't to my standards every day. Often to tell you the truth there isn't much of a difference at all and will do the job just fine.

I don't see you down at the dealer buying a water pump for your daily driver, you are buying it from a parts store in town, same goes for brakes, wheel bearings and the radiator, you aren't down at the dealer buying these things are you?

Brian
there's a huge difference between aftermarket and OEM chrome bumpers for trucks. Fenders, hoods, etc, seem to be decent enough fit wise at least.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
there's a huge difference between aftermarket and OEM chrome bumpers for trucks. Fenders, hoods, etc, seem to be decent enough fit wise at least.
I know, and those aren't used by us! I have shown here before the difference in bumper brackets, holy cow the AM are no where near as strong.

But as I have said about this before, there is a place for it. Repairing some 15 year old car to keep it on the road and give someone their piece of transportation back, using some cheapie AM parts makes sense.

But when the insurance company wants you to put it on a 1 year old car, that chaps my hide.

Brian
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
no no I buy the ac delco starter the delco alt, the ac delco w/p
delco plug wires. autolite plug wires(wifes ford)
trw parts for the 99 grand mark as they are FACTORY ORIGINAL parts..
so yes I use factory replacements.. when aval.
Boy, you are anal on that aren't you! Good going, I commend you.

Brian
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:19 PM
put up or shut up
 

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I know, and those aren't used by us! I have shown here before the difference in bumper brackets, holy cow the AM are no where near as strong.

But as I have said about this before, there is a place for it. Repairing some 15 year old car to keep it on the road and give someone their piece of transportation back, using some cheapie AM parts makes sense.

But when the insurance company wants you to put it on a 1 year old car, that chaps my hide.

Brian
yep. If not for AM parts on certain jobs, that "work" may go to the scrap yard.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:42 PM
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That's about it in a nutshell Henry. The bummer is the aftermarket industry has sold the insurance industry a sock of poop in that it's the "same" and warranteed and all that, it's a damn joke.

Brian
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