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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2009, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
SO HERES ONE I'D REALLY LIKE TO HEAR SOMEONE HAVE THE BALLS TO ANSWER.
YOU TAKE A CAR IN TO GET PAINTED. HOW MANY PEOPLE SAY OF ALL THE DINGS, DENTS, AND WAVES, I ONLY WANT THIS ONE FIXED THE REST YOU CAN PAINT OVER?
WHAT THE HELL KIND OF SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?


Many times an insurance adjuster has said to just fix the dent our insured caused.. it's called pre-collision condition..
It's tough to paint over pre existing dings and dents but often they are left in an effort to not affect a blend..

It's not a perfect world...not everyone is a customer,
I'm a cash paying customer. The quarter panels are the only steel parts that are finish painted (the rest being SMC and urethane)
I never set a budget, I said I want it fixed, I don't care if it takes $1000 more to get the new to blend. $4000 to have it done right is money well spent, $950 to have it done wrong is 100% wasted. JMHO.

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Old 03-07-2009, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by C-10
Do not treat DanTwoLakes that way. His Intentions were good.
B]
HE ALSO REQUESTED I BE MORE CANDID, JMHO I TRIED TO FULFILL HIS REQUEST.
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Originally Posted by DanTwoLakes
I'm a bit curious. It seems to me that you are not being completely candid about the whole process..
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2009, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason
I never set a budget, I said I want it fixed, I don't care if it takes $1000 more to get the new to blend. $4000 to have it done right is money well spent, $950 to have it done wrong is 100% wasted. JMHO.
No budget= no problem..

Just have the enhancements done
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2009, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason
HE ALSO REQUESTED I BE MORE CANDID, JMHO I TRIED TO FULFILL HIS REQUEST.
It's O.K. Jason, I deserved being told off. Yes, I did ask you to be more candid, and you explained your situation fully. I'm sorry I touched that raw nerve and I fully understand why you are as frustrated and upset as you are. It makes perfect sense to get the paint done somewhere else if the first shop stiffed you. Nobody wants to be taken advantage of. I didn't understand that part of the story when I read your post the first time. I apologize for making this whole situation worse for you.
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Old 03-07-2009, 09:03 AM
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Take it to another shop that has one of those computerized frame/unibody pulling contraptions and have them check it. Tell them you want it documented as to how far the various 'check points' are off. Ask them what the typical acceptable tolerances are for those checkpoints and have them document that also.

Then take that info (assuming it proves the car is out of whack) back to the place that did the work and challenge/negotiate/threaten/whatever their work.

BTW, did you tell the guy that price was no object and just 'do it right' or was the insurance company involved and you needed to keep it close to their estimate.

I'm betting the paperwork you signed at the repair/paint places merely says repair/paint damaged quarter panel areas. I'll agree they probably thought you weren't worthy of their 'excellent' work. Dust and over spray on the interior is unforgivable though.

There is a big difference in doing a good/excellent job on a car worth x dollars and a car worth 10 or 50 times that. Its just a fact of life. try not to get an ulcer/heart attack over it.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2009, 10:23 AM
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Wow, some heated comments in this thread, yow.

Ok, here is the take of one of us low life lying bast-ards who work at a body shop.

First off, I see well over a hundred customers a month. I see every end of the spectrum, from the hunched over old guy who couldn't see if you bolted the fender on upside down to the ponytail who thinks he is Travis Trit in the F350 a foot higher than stock that hasn't one spec of dust or dirt and what appears to be waxed suspension components!

Most people who complain about something are justified, we dropped the ball. Most people who complain, are RIGHT, the color is off, panel doesn't fit well, what ever, they are RIGHT.

There are a group however that are way out of line and expect very strange stuff. So forgive me when I don't know who you are. I understand from what you say clearly, sounds like you got hosed. But on the same respect, it sounds like everywhere you have ever went did you wrong, that is usually a red flag to me. You can't be did wrong EVERYWHERE, it is against the odds, sorry. When I hear that, it is a red flag that some of the fault may be on you. You want opinion, you got it, don't flame me.

One thing I have learned over the years, some people "hear" the damnest things. They hear what they want to hear, and they THINK the other person has heard the same. It is usually BOTH parties fault, NEITHER party made themselves understood. The definition of "communication" is "transfer of meaning". I see all too often working with guys in the shop for instance where it is ME who does't make myself clear to them, it is MY fault as much as theirs when they don't do as they were told.

Do people have a dent fixed leaving others around it unfixed you asked? YES, it happens all the time!!!!!!!!!!! YES, it happens all the time!!!!

I have had people come back to pick up their ding covered car, to point one out in the middle of a ding covered panel saying it wasn't there before! They want us to fix it! We have a VERY serious customer policy, we do what they say no matter how stupid usually. So we will fix this ding in the middle of a panel covered with dings and paint the panel just as we would any other, leaving the rest of the dings. THAT is what the customer requested! Should we fix the others? Yes, and sometimes we do. But if those others are getting too close to the next panel we would have to blend an adjacent panel, so many times those other dings will stay there. YES, people do strange things!

Do people claim strange things? YES, how about a guy with a car so filthy, so unbelievably filthy that it stunk. You wanted to put your work clothes on BEFORE you got in so you wouldn't dirty your street clothes. This guy comes to pick up his truck and tells us "someone" put a broken cigarette in the shift boot! And, "someone" spilled something on his carpet and there is a stain that wasn't there! This carpet was COVERED with stains, yet there is one that wasn't' there, NO KIDDING! Yes people do strange things.

What is really funny is when they claim things happened during the accident that are SOOOOOO ignorant like claiming some dent wasn't there that was OBVIOUSLY caused by another accident and seriously rusted where the paint had chipped off the metal. Yes, people do strange things.

I walked out to deliver a car and had the customer go crazy on me about some roof mouldings he said he was told were going to be thrown in.
This was a 10 year old very used Volvo. We did about $1500 in repairs to the front bumper. My boss told the guy he would spot paint the roof rails to "patch" the peeling clear. My boss who communicates VERY well and is SUPER honest told me he made it clear that he would "throw in" this repair but that it was not "right" as that would cost a thousand dollars or more being the quarters would have to be painted and so on. This was explained very well to him, do you know what he heard? He heard that we were going to replace the roof mouldings and make the insurance pay for it!!!! We NEVER, EVER, EVER do stuff like that, we don't even joke, we don't even hint to anything such as that, WE DON'T COMMIT FRAUD. Yet this customer went on and on like that is what he was told. He didn't say anything about the clear being repaired, like it didn't even happen, ALL he kept saying over and over was how he was told those mouldings would be replaced! Yes people do strange things.

We had a customer go off on us because his remote didn't work for his trunk, only to find out he didn't even have one! Yes people do strange things.

I had a guy last month with a 2008 Honda Civic that was like new, very low miles. It had a destroyed fender, just the fender, the headlight was broken all to hell inside with pieces flipping around behind the lens and the bumper was scraped. He had me put an aftermarket Taiwan fender on it, with no blends. He didn't care what the color looked like, no blends onto the door or hood and left the broken headlight! Now mind you, the labor would be nothing to install it, it was coming off anyway to install the fender. The new Afermarket headlamp was something like $150, he said no! Yes people do strange stuff!


People do some pretty strange stuff, so don't be all "Have you ever heard of something so stupid?" YES, I have heard of something so stupid, it happens ALL THE TIME!

Did these guys do you wrong, honestly, I have no idea because I haven't spoke with THEM.

Brian
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2009, 10:41 AM
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By the way, I have read most of the thread and I didn't see this mentioned, the "whole body" isn't "dent resistant" the body is all metal. The doors are SMC (Sheet Moulding Compound) along with the hood and lift gate. The fenders are "urethane" as are the bumpers (but much less flexible than the bumpers). Not that it makes any difference, just thought I would point that out. And you first took the car to a restoration shop, not a collision shop. Your car was in a collision, not being restored. Like Atlantic Collision repair couldn't do a restoration worth a darn because that isn't "their thing", the restoration shop most likely doesn't know diddly about collision repair, they are two totally different things.

The bumper looks like it was stripped with a friggin grinder, not very "pro". You got the "repairs" done at one shop, then brought it to another shop for the paint work, odd, very odd. So, you give the car to the second shop and said "smooth out the quarter", they look at a bunch of half done body work with the bumper prepped with a roto-tiller and they send it off to the shop and tell the guys "paint it".

If you wanted it right, the body shop who did the BODY WORK should have did all that prior to having Atlantic paint it. It is VERY easy to have a communication problem with one shop doing the body work, never even having to think about the RESPONSIBLITY of painting it, then handing it to another shop to paint, you leave them out of the RESPONSIBLITY of the body work!

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 03-07-2009 at 10:48 AM.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2009, 01:17 PM
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Well I appreciate your comments, as well as everyone elses.

And FWIW that restoration shop had a frame machine with all the lazers and whatever. The owner was proud to take me back and show me the machine and tell me how much it cost, etc.

My question was how to get a shop to do the work right the first time. I've got some good info here, basically I need to go in when I drop a vehicle off and tell them how I want it done, what I know about cars, etc.
I have done a few succesful 1/4 panel replacements, I've painted and smoothed out a few vehicles. I think I know enough about my own vehicles that if there is a next time I'll have to be an a hole before they touch it so they get an idea of whats expected when I pick it up.

Honestly, I didn't think it was such a big deal to have one shop do one thing, then have another shop do something else. It's like a wrecked car, they don't all look exactly the same. So even though my car was worked on by someone else, it should be no more of a challenge than working on a wrecked car.
If anything they might want to pay more attention and find out why I'm not letting the other shop finish it. I already said that when I brought it back the estimator admitted to not understanding fully what I wanted them to do.

I thought it was obvious, that was my mistake right there.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
By the way, I have read most of the thread and I didn't see this mentioned, the "whole body" isn't "dent resistant" the body is all metal. The doors are SMC (Sheet Moulding Compound) along with the hood and lift gate. The fenders are "urethane" as are the bumpers (but much less flexible than the bumpers). Not that it makes any difference, just thought I would point that out.

Brian
Actually the hood is steel. Got ya.
I did say it is a Z28- factory steel hood, I also have an SS with a factory SMC hood.

My point about being dent resistant is that the steel quarter panels get dents all the time. I don't think SMC dents. My point about that was that it makes sense to work the dents out of the quarters, seeing how if, say a door, was impacted it would probably leave more than a dent. And also to let those who may not know and may think the whole body surface is steel, let them know only the shiney painted parts that are subjected to typical parking lot dings are the rear 1/4's

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2009, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
I already said that when I brought it back the estimator admitted to not understanding fully what I wanted them to do.

I thought it was obvious, that was my mistake right there.
That is the answer to this entire thread! It is usually both at fault, but on the same note, it is often obvious that one doesn't fully understand. This is common, I have experianced it many times. I explain something and then ask then to repeat back to me (in a nice way, not like I am quizing them) and they explain it back different than what I said. I had not done my job in fully explaining it.

We use the term "remove and replace" along with the term "new" or "remanufactured" in one sentence. So, "remove and replace" could be with a "New" bumper, or it could be with a "remanufactured" bumper.

I have seen where I explain this to the customer that they are getting a "remanufactured" bumper, and explain to them what "remanufactured" means. Then later while taking their keys to the car or something the bumper is brought back up, "So, I will be getting a new bumper, right"

I explained it, clearly, yet they heard what they wanted to hear.

It cracks me up how I will read the work order over to the tech explaining every line and what needs to be done. I can be half way thru and the guy will say "What about those clips for the moulding?". I had read the line and expanded on it, back on the first page of the repair order about those friggin clips! What in the hell was he doing when I said it? It is odd, but we all do it, drift off for a second, or what ever. The real sad part is when someone "hears what they want to hear" and then it is engrained into their head. You can say over and over what you really meant but what they wanted to hear was tattooed there and nothing can replace it.

I don't know what happened here completely, only a sit down with both you and the estimator could clear it all up.

All I know is, it was ALL about communication, not the shops skills or workmanship.

Brian
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:34 PM
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Well that may sum it all up.
I want to thank everyone for posting, even if I didn't respond or even refer to your post I read them all and they have all helped in some way.

Thats why I come here, thanks to all.
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
That is the answer to this entire thread! It is usually both at fault, but on the same note, it is often obvious that one doesn't fully understand. This is common, I have experianced it many times. I explain something and then ask then to repeat back to me (in a nice way, not like I am quizing them) and they explain it back different than what I said. I had not done my job in fully explaining it.


Brian
Brian
Why don't you put down everything on paper and use diagrams similar to the one's the rental car companies use? They have drawings of the cars and they circle the areas where the dents are and write everything down with arrows pointing to the dents/scratches etc. Then ask the customer to read it and sign it. Both parties get a copy and every detail is spelled/drawn out in black and white.

Would that help reduce some of the miscommunication?
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:52 PM
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I don't know if we should add paper to the office, work to the estimators and more time spent with each customer just because of a small fraction of them.

If the solution is easy, yes we could do that. But adding that could get very time consuming. The rental cars are almost always very nice with just a few knicks or scratches. Many cars we do have knicks, scratches tears in the seats ext. It would take a half hour to get that done and seriously add to the work in a day that is difficult to get done as it is.

It is all there in the work order, to read over it well with the customer is what it is all about.

But your suggestion isn't something we haven't talked about it in the office. It is good suggestion, and could work, we should re-visit it again maybe.

Brian
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:52 AM
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I have been on the customer side of someone writing EVERYTHING down and I could see it being a real PITA.

In my case its because I periodically 'babysit' the pickup/delivery of a couple of exotic/expensive ($500K-800K) cars (owned by someone else) for 'normal' maintenance by an out of town dealership.

Every scratch, rub mark, 1/8" stone chip gets documented. Rims, window moulding, body lenses, you name it and it gets looked at when they pick it up. 30 minutes for the guy to look the car over, document it and then 5 minutes to go over it with me and have me sign it. That's for only about 5 to 10 things that I would never imagine anyone noticing much less complaining about. The guy doing the checking is one heck of a anal nitpicker and I sincerely mean that as a compliment to him. NOTHING gets past his eagle eye.

I don't think a shop could do that on a ongoing basis for 'normal' cars.

At what point would you stop noticing things and not document them? Could you afford to miss a few nicks and then have the owner jump on you later? And all this for a car that might be worth $10K? Even for a $100K car its probably not worth it.
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave5605
At what point would you stop noticing things and not document them? Could you afford to miss a few nicks and then have the owner jump on you later? And all this for a car that might be worth $10K? Even for a $100K car its probably not worth it.
This is my biggest concern. During a normal working day I am amazed at what we over look in the first minutes. I have seen over and over where we have a car in the shop for a week and someone comes in and says "You know theres a big dent on the right door of that 07 Envoy". We walk out there and sure enough there is a scrape and dent that looks old, we ask the customer and thank God they are usually honest and they tell us it was there. Damn, we have been working on this car for a week and never saw it!

I have went around a car looking for damage and miss stuff myself, it is strange how it goes.

Our production manager goes nuts with photos of cars previous damage. The car is there a few days and he has taken twenty photos of it! If the photos weren't taken while the customer is there, what in the hell good is it?

He cracks me up because he will have a friggin memory card full of these photos, he spends more time worring about those dings that we may get popped on (very rare) than getting cars through the shop!

I said to him the other day, "You know I have never heard the boss yell at you because you missed a ding on a car, but I sure have heard him yell at you because a car didn't get done when we promised the customer!" He focuses his time on the wrong thing! But that is another rant of mine.

Brian
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