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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2008, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eatonde
well tech that sounds great, but I don't have the money to be buyin all that stuff.

Since when are GM vortec or patriot heads JUNK????
I don't think that a set of Patriot freedom's 190's CNC bowl blended, fully assembled with quality components and .600 lift springs is junk at all flowing 263cfm @.500lift.

But if you wanna foot the bill for me I'll be glad to build it
Either step up to the plate and play ball or find another hobby. By the time you finish spending money on the Patriots to get everything flat and parallel, you could have bought AFR's. As far as Vortecs, they won't make 500 hp on a 406. They will make 400+ on a 350 though.

I really have no patience for rodders who try to "cheap-out". By the time you're my age, you'll understand. There's an old saying that covers it....
"The sour taste of poor quality remains long after the sweet taste of low cost is forgotten".

If you don't have the coin to buy the good stuff now, then put your project on hold until you can amass more wealth.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2008, 04:30 PM
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eatonde,
that 400 motor was designed (poorly) so a heavy big car would accelerate decent without putting your foot to the floor by having 50 cubes worth of additional acceleration TQ versus a 350 to help mpg....

to build a 500HP version the only original part used will be the block.....
or it will self destruct and/or need a rebuild in no time....

do more reading and studying on what it takes to build up a 400 short block specifically....
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Old 10-31-2008, 04:38 PM
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hopefully

I do understand that a patriot isn't an AFR, I agree. But unlike you I'm not Old enough to have all my ***** paid off... I'm 23 with 10 years left on my $1700 mortgage, a baby, and wife that just DOESN"T GET IT!!!!!! So its easier for me to justify usign the patriots..... Like i said CNC bowl blended and gasket matched, manley valves/ studs, comp springs, ect

$789 assembled and shipped, ready to use out of the box!!!!! What do you mean to get everything flat and paralell???? I guess you say patriots are junk too huh??!!!

I just don't get it, Why is it so diffificult for some guys to just answer the question that was asked???? I asked if I'd need more cam then the 268H if I put a 64cc head on a stock 400 (10:1) or if the 268 would suffice???? I didn't ask to get into a battle over what head was best or for anyone to give me a REDICULOUS $10,000 600HP engine combo!!! Did I?? This happens all the time, why can't people just answer a SIMPLE QUESTION???? Its beyond me..... Tech, I know your only tryin to help, but don't forget we are typing not talking and there is no way for my to feel the emotion in which you say things, but I took it as "your a dumb*ss, don't think, do what I say, and I'm a POS cuz I can't afford it". Just saying how it sounded to me!!

Sorry if I sounded rude but if anyone else on here can give me an answer to that question with out going to another planet I'd appreciate it.

Oh and BTW Tech Vortecs can make good power one a 400, I was just sent an article from super chevy of a 406, 22cc dish hyper KB pistons, comp 280 magnum cam.....
Dynoed both the vortecs and the AFR competition 180's, The AFR's were only worth an additional 4 FTLB and 69HP under 5600 RPM.


I know you gonna say yea but they coulda ran more cam with the AFR's, but basically LIKE FOR LIKE, this is enough proof for me, and not enough to make me wanna fork out another 2 grand for heads to make 69 more HP. Thats just me tho
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...ild/index.html
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2008, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eatonde
A guy plugged the current engine specs in for me to DD and it said
One thing I can tell you, is if you are putting your faith and trust into a $39.00 piece of software to convince you that someone with as much "real" experience as techinspector1 and many other people on here have that are trying to help you.....then theres not much more advice or help we can offer, except good luck!
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:59 PM
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the short block dosn't care what is written on the v/c. heads, cam, intake and carb are the keys ,and have always been. people are saying get good machine work done, and use good parts ,and you won't have regrets. I use a lot of used parts and can get away with it because I know what i am looking at. speed cost money. how fast do you want to go?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2008, 06:15 PM
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Guys don't want to get involved in a peeing contest,but if I had a 400 stock shortblock and a big mortgage I would use the vortecs or patriots slapped on a good shape stock shortblock and have fun, I would step up to a bigger cam tho like a comp 280 or 292h they are old tech but they work and are easy on the valve train.Will it be 600 nah but it will be a strong 425 to 450.As far as stock stuff being weak BS! go to any short track in the country and watch some claimer racing.We throw solid cams in em, good heads and hang on .I personally saw a stock cast piston rebuilder special with aluminum bowtie heads and roller cam last 3 years at 6800 to 7000 rpm every night win several races against much higher dollar stuff.If it is what you got go for it.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2008, 08:00 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
Either step up to the plate and play ball or find another hobby. By the time you finish spending money on the Patriots to get everything flat and parallel, you could have bought AFR's. As far as Vortecs, they won't make 500 hp on a 406. They will make 400+ on a 350 though.

I really have no patience for rodders who try to "cheap-out". By the time you're my age, you'll understand. There's an old saying that covers it....
"The sour taste of poor quality remains long after the sweet taste of low cost is forgotten".

If you don't have the coin to buy the good stuff now, then put your project on hold until you can amass more wealth.

There ahve been many Vortec builds of 350's, 383's and 400's that have all made 500 HP. And that's factory Vortecs- used. Not the bow ties ones, those can surpass 600 hp. naturally aspirated of course.

I'm working on a budget 350 which will probably cost me about $2500 in total and will be just a hair under 500 hp. Ported heads, valvetrain modified for .600 lift, airgap manifold, HEI, cheap solid flat tappet cam, 1.6:1 roller rockers, 11:1 compression, 2.02/1.6 valves- all stuff that adds up to about 500 hp (give or take for assembly ability and size of cam, caarb, etc.).
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2008, 10:21 AM
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baby+bills+wife= just tweek it for max TQ at low rpms and use the deepest gears your 87 octane gas budget can afford for the most street fun with no funds....

HP is: available TQ ft/lbs "measured over time and distance" as in elapsed "time" and 1/4 mile "distance"

TQ is: how much actual force at a given rpms is applied to the tires to "accelerate" the weight and determines how quick it will wind up gaining more and more Hg for a better fill....
and that's what makes a really fun street car, lots of push you back in the seat TQ force.....
your stock 400 does make well over 300ft/lbs at just 1500-2000rpms for "launch"....
300ft/lbs x 2.46 first gear x 4.56 rear gears =3365 ft/lbs of force on the tires to move a typical 3300 lb car.....
300 x 2.46 x 2.80 stock rear gears =2066 ft/lbs which was enough force to accelerate the heavy 3800lb+ car kinda' ok WOT....

many/most of the magazine HP build articles don't show the 1,000rpms to 3000rpms dyno results,,,because they are terrible!!!!!
ex:
a high HP motor "has to" have a $$$ high stall converter and deep gears because there is next to no TQ power below 2500 to accelerate the weight,,, so the needed more slip converter doesn't grab till the rpms and piston speeds are higher....

"really quick" (0-60mph) can be cheap to build....
really quick "and fast" is expensive....

PS: most of the muscle cars were way below 1HP per cube ...
they are a blast to drive on the street because if you bought one it automatically came with much lower gears to multiply the more cubes TQ....
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2008, 11:52 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Red, as much as you goon about gears I'd swear you work for Richmond
seriously though, you have a good point. I'd also like to add steppin gup to a 2000 or 2500 stall on the street- between that and a gear swap most people think they've gained 100 horsepower- really they've just gained over 100 ftlb at the wheels for a given viehicle speed.

Still though, budget 450+ horse engines can be built for less than 3G's and don't necessarily lack low end torque. Its just all a balancing act.

I know this is the worst reason to do it, but I like to build high hp engines on the street because they're harder to drive and sound bad ***. Most people want easier to drive, but to me there's something gratifying about rowing through the gears or leaving a stop sign with 8" of vacuum. It's like nothing... nothing... nothing... BAM! and if you're really good at driving around the "BAM" zone on your tach its one hell of a treat for your passengers.
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Old 11-02-2008, 11:54 AM
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software???

First off I never said I trusted or PUT FAITH into the DD, It was just a starting point, And the next step was to ask you guys how close it sounded to being real numbers. But lets all act like a bunch of 3 years olds and start the stone throwin!!!!!!!!

LIKE I SAID I JUST WANTED A SIMPLE QUESTION ANSWERED BUT I GUES IT WAS TTTOOOOOOOO COMPLICATED.

BTH I never said I didn't trust Techinspectors advice or the combo that he posted... I just said I can't afford it....

I'm I wanna make the best of what I got REPEAT "STUFF I ALREADY HAVE" I didn't buy the 400 that was already built, I bought one that needs rebuilt cuz there wasn't enough info on the other on, so I'll just build it myself.
As far as using stock parts goes, THANK YOU BARNY4, I know what possible and what is not and your right they will hold 7 grand. I have a 350that has a stock crank, hyper KB119 domes, and I-beam rods. My shift light is set at 7500,and she never missed a lick, after about 200 passes It still runs like it did right after I built it.
I also have a 283 stock crank, rods, aftermarket cam Hyper F/T's, with a SM465 and 456 gears behind it and It has never came apart even at 8 grand, NO BS!!!!!


The 400 I did buy Is gettin bored .030, 5.7 forged I-beam rods, STOCK CRANKSHAFT, Comp 280 magnum, 22cc Dishtop Coated Hyperutectic pistons, 062 vortec heads that at the least are gettin gasket matched and bowl blended if not fully ported, vortec perf. rpm intake and a Holley 750 VS carb. B&M 2500 stall, TH 400 stage 2 kit, and 373 gear. daily driver. It may get a 100 HP shot somtime in the future.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2008, 02:35 PM
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NA engine is air pump, to increase power increase air through pump.

If your current engine gets X HP figure what you have to do to get up to flow x time 1.5 air flow..... IE your curent combo flows 180 to get 1.5 times power you need to get it to flow about 270

AIR FLOW THRU THE HEADS..... (better more accurate to figure from carb(s) bell to headder collectors.) very simple way is to force more through, but that is above your means...
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2008, 07:59 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHD
NA engine is air pump, to increase power increase air through pump.

If your current engine gets X HP figure what you have to do to get up to flow x time 1.5 air flow..... IE your curent combo flows 180 to get 1.5 times power you need to get it to flow about 270

AIR FLOW THRU THE HEADS..... (better more accurate to figure from carb(s) bell to headder collectors.) very simple way is to force more through, but that is above your means...

I'm not a lingistics expert, nor an expert in cryptography; hell, I'm lucky if I can spell every word in a sentence right- and I most definitely can not make any sense of that...
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Old 11-03-2008, 04:32 AM
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nope

me niether
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:42 AM
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increase the air flowing through your engine, by the same % of power increase, you are trying to get....

350/200hp to 350/400hp would be 100% increase...that simple enough?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2008, 07:23 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHD
increase the air flowing through your engine, by the same % of power increase, you are trying to get....

350/200hp to 350/400hp would be 100% increase...that simple enough?

Yea, that makes more sense- but its half wrong, or half right- depending on how you look at it.
You also can increase the power by making the eninge operate with the same airflow in a more efficent manner- which is the best way to go about it for a street machine. You do need more air for 400 hp than 200, but not necessarily twice as much. For optimum efficency you do it with as little extra as possible.
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