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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2004, 09:26 AM
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IF you are using pre-fit rings you should not have to file them, but you will still want to double check the end gap. If it is too tight/small it can cause you some real problems (broken ring lands, scored cylinder).

When I use plasti-gauge I like to break the piece off long enough to go across the whole journal, this will help to tell you if the journal has taper. Mics are a great tool, and if you want exact measurements that is the only way to go. Plasti-gauge will tell you if you machinist screwed up and is good enough to keep you out of trouble.

As far as putting the wrong rod in the wrong cylinder, this will depend on a couple things, if the pistons are press fit, and you have two valve relief pistons, depending on which cylinders you mix up you could have valve to piston contact, or the piston could be in up side down. There is also a chamfer on the big end of the rod and a flat side, the chamfer goes towards the crank and the flat side mates with the next rod on the journal. You do not want to get this mixed up, or you will be doing another rebuild soon. If they are press fit your machinist will probably number them for you (ask him to), so you don't get mixed up. Some pistons have a mark on top (a dot or arrow) and this will always face the front of the block. You also want to make sure you have the same cap with the same rod and that it is put on correctly. There are a lot of things you have to be aware of, I never really think about it, but once you start explaining it to someone there is too much to write here. I HIGHLY suggest you invest a little time in the books and read up, you are dealing with .001" measurements/clearances, things need to be right.

Royce

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2004, 10:37 AM
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btw, the hook was set a long time ago. i'm hooked, big time.


i've bought and read the books and have a good idea of hwat i'm gonna do, i just like to double check and to learn from guys w/ experience.

i'm keeping the crank and pistons. everything else i'm replacing.

how does it appear if i'm headed in the right direction for 300-325 horse, 9.0 -9.5:-1 compression?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2004, 10:59 AM
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Crank Lope

So by now you know that cranks don't create lope. But may I ask what you plan to do with this thing once you build it? The hp sounds reasonable for the engine, but what is behind it? Good luck.

hr41pearl
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2004, 12:29 PM
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no, actually cams create lope. in fact i just had a short discussion w/ my machinist/ engine guy on lope. we picked a cam that has fair lope at idle and duration of exhaust slightly longer than the intake. i didnt want to get into to many complications or adjustments, so this should be ok.
i dont understand the purpose of lope, beyond a cool sound and i dont understand how lope at idle becomes smooth at acceleration either, but i will soon , i guess.

my plans are simple. i have a 4 1/2 yr old son. i've wanted to get into engines and cars all my life, i just never had money or anyone to help me. now i'm an adult, i can do what i like and i have the money and the place to do it. i want to know what i'm doing when my son comes to me and says, "dad, let's go build a hot rod" or something like that. so i figured i better get started while he's young. he stands out in the garage w/ me sometimes and asks questions and touches tools and the engine, so it's grea that way.
i intend to put this in either a 1st gen. camaro or a chevelle, depending on what i can find. i dont want any pristine car, i want a project and i dont want to pay ridiculous prices for crap. w/ the camaro's you're lucky to find one in terrible shape for under 4 grand. the chevelles seems more reasonable, but we'll see.
after the engine is done, i'll move to the car project and that should take a couple yrs of work and learning. then i'll put it all together, and hopefully be successful at it. then i'll start another. i'm hoping to have finished at least 2 by the time my son is ready to start one together.

i originally was going for 350+ hp, but i decided that was too much and too advanced for a first time.based on what i've listed in this thread, do you think i'll get to 325 hp?
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Old 01-23-2004, 01:00 PM
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Right on

Lope is a bit of timing and a breathing. It opens its mouth wide and nothing happens at low speed but AT SPEED there is more gas and away you go. Or I guess you could say that it is just a little lean at idle because with the valve open longer it gets more air. Sounds like you have the fever. You might look for a cheap chevy II or nova. Even a budget truck. After you build the motor, you are going to want to try it out. My daughters grew up much like your son is going to and they still have fun hanging out. Now the grand kids are coming along and we are starting again. The only one that drives anything new is my wife. 2004 Camry. Oh well. My grands are 13 / 10 / 5 / 10mo twins. Last three are boys.

Check http://www.collectorcartraderonline.com/adsearch.html You can find some good cars, low priced. Bet you will make the 325 at the fly wheel. Good luck.

hr41pearl
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Old 01-23-2004, 01:17 PM
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thx for the link, i've been searching for a couple yrs.
it took me a yr and a half to find the engine for the price i wanted, so i'm patient. i just found a club of guys at an old warehouse. i drove by this old warehouse every day and looked at this '69 chevelle every day. one day i stopped and went inside. to my surprise, there was 6 different cars in differing stages of rebuild...all chevy and one pontiac..mainly chevelles, camaro,vette. these guys all rent the space and hang out together and work on their cars. i was like discovering disneyworld! good guys, good contacts.

Thom, you lost me on the flywheel thing. are you saying i'm probably gonna be close to 325 hp as it is and then the flywheel will add the diff or am i missing something? remember, i'm just learning!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2004, 01:41 PM
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Good Group.

Today they measure HP at different points. Rear wheels and flywheel. Engine outs 350 then you lose 35 for transmission, 45 for rearend, 15 tires, etc. Those are not real numbers, but you get the idea. HP at the engine is not HP on the ground. Torque however does transfer nearly 100%

Junk yards are a good source of things CHEAP. I buy 350 long blocks for 75-100 here in CA. MN? Should be cheaper. WI I know is cheaper. Used to live there. Grew up in junk yards / flat heads, etc. First car - 49 Kaiser. 80 Bucks in 55. Not yet 14 and I knew I could make more in a yard than bailing hay. I go to Mexico 2-3 days a week for work. I can get motors there for 40-50. Build mostly 383 strokers. Just having fun at this stage and playing golf.

hr41pearl
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2004, 02:09 PM
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nice.
out here, in phila., i got my 350 for $200. best overall deal i could find. i wanted a 350, carburated. there's a ton of 3o5's and 307's and 350's, all F.i., and full of computer chips.
most of the yards around here have newer cars--say '83 on up. this doesn't interest me. if i could find a yard with 60's and 70's in it, i'd be in heaven!

does a dynomometer measure at the engine?

so what is a typical adjusted HP rating for a decent hot rod? not a racer, just a decent street rod?
if the engine is 350 hp, what is the typical adjusted hp?
true 350 hp, after being adjusted must be unreal if 350 less all the adjustments is as good as it is now!
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2004, 02:50 PM
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Here is what we do for our customers:

We check everything that we machine before, during, and after the machining processes (boring, honing, rod reconditioning, etc.). We encourage our customers to double check everything that they can to the best of their ability. This way, we can be sure that all attempts to check critical tolerances have been taken.

Plastgauging is a good way to final check bearing clearances during final assembley. It's a good way to insure that one isn't putting standard bearings on a turned crank.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2004, 03:38 PM
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DYNO

They can Dyno either the engine or the whole car. With the car / truck they drop the rear wheels in a set of rollers. Then the can pattern the drive of the car for hills / loads and flats. I usually do it this way. They can do an engine directly for performance but you miss a few things like your transmission, your rearend, and tires. An engines curve will change based on the drive train you use. Thus cams are usually based on the whole package not just the engines ability.

I asked Willy to step in here and give you some numbers on realistic outputs for racers / hot roders / streeters. You should be able to do what you want (325) for the engine and probably closer to 370's. The car you choose will eat some before it gets to the road. Still fun.

hr41pearl
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2004, 04:43 PM
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Power potential of a 350 SBC

That is a really open ended question! All depends on how much money you want to spend and how well the combination is engineered. Understand that internal combustion engines are a compromise - you ALWAYS give up something to get another. There is no perfect universal engine made. People who want 400, 500 or 600hp out of a 350-388 SBC will sacrifice low end drive-ability. Can't be avoided. Conversely, those who want stop light responsiveness and smooth cruising will never be able to get the 8 second bracket car of their dreams.

All that being said, IN GENERAL (now there will be 50 board members posting testimonials of their 1000hp, 5 second grocery getters that cost $500 to build and get 30 mpg!), if you want a true racing engine +500hp, you are talking a $5,000 minimum engine with a bunch of specialized after market parts and a tune for high rpm so it will be virtually unstreetable - idle will be near cruising speed for a street engine! Carb, heads, intake manifold, cam, headers, etc., will all be way too big to run well at low rpm.

Again, IN GENERAL, the engine most street/strip guys aim for is a 350-400hp slug. In this range, you can put together a great engine for $2,000-$5000 and there is an unbelievable variety of options for blocks, heads, intake manifolds, carbs/ blowers/ TPI, cams, pistons, etc., etc., etc. It will be relatively streetable and still be respectable on the drag strip.

More generalities. You can get more drivable horsepower from bigger cu.in. engines. A fairly stock 500cu.in. Caddy will start out with more power than a fairly stout, highly modified and expensive SBC. That is what flathead enthusiasts run up against - their tiny V8s with thousands of dollars of modifications don't match a relatively inexpensive factory hot rod 350. And the 350 will purr to the grocery store while the flattie is screaming by at 100mph just to maintain idle!

Read Summit and Jegs catalogs for the specs and parts they use in the wide variety of engines they offer. At bigger rod runs, go to the the Chevy engine display and talk to the tech about how they achieve the power ratings for the variety of engines they have on display.

That is a pretty general answer but I can't be more specific.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2004, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by camaroman7d

As far as putting the wrong rod in the wrong cylinder, this will depend on a couple things, if the pistons are press fit, and you have two valve relief pistons, depending on which cylinders you mix up you could have valve to piston contact, or the piston could be in up side down. There is also a chamfer on the big end of the rod and a flat side, the chamfer goes towards the crank and the flat side mates with the next rod on the journal. You do not want to get this mixed up, or you will be doing another rebuild soon.
Royce
Think about what you are saying.......

SBC rods are all put on the piston the same way. If you think about the fact that the chamfer faces the outside of the journal and the the banks oppose each other, this means all the pistons should be assembled the same way. As long as you do this and check the rod orientation you should be good. If the pistons are not marked and are two relief style, make sure the valve reliefs face the outside of the block.

Chris
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2004, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TurboS10
Think about what you are saying.......

SBC rods are all put on the piston the same way. If you think about the fact that the chamfer faces the outside of the journal and the the banks oppose each other, this means all the pistons should be assembled the same way. As long as you do this and check the rod orientation you should be good. If the pistons are not marked and are two relief style, make sure the valve reliefs face the outside of the block.

Chris
Sorry, but that is WRONG. SBC rods are not all put on the piston the same way. If you have 2 valve relief pistons with no offset, the relief should be opposite the bearing tangs. This will position the chamfers to the journal ends. If you have pistons with a notch or dot as the front identifier mark, the bearing tangs should be to the outside of the block. In other words, if you are looking at the piston from the front, 1,3,5,and 7 will have the tangs to the right; 2,4,6, and 8 will have the tangs to the left. If they were all put on the same way, there would be 4 incorrectly mounted.

Best to leave this to the knowledgable engine builder or competent machine shop.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2004, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by machine shop tom
Sorry, but that is WRONG. SBC rods are not all put on the piston the same way. If you have 2 valve relief pistons with no offset, the relief should be opposite the bearing tangs. This will position the chamfers to the journal ends. If you have pistons with a notch or dot as the front identifier mark, the bearing tangs should be to the outside of the block. In other words, if you are looking at the piston from the front, 1,3,5,and 7 will have the tangs to the right; 2,4,6, and 8 will have the tangs to the left. If they were all put on the same way, there would be 4 incorrectly mounted.

Best to leave this to the knowledgable engine builder or competent machine shop.
Okay, I should have said for four valve relief with notches, the rods will be differently mounted. For two valve relief unmarked the will be the same. Since the two reliefs go at the bottom of the cylinder and the and the tang opposite. In this case they would all be the same. In the case of marked 4 valve, they would be opposite.

My Bad. Temporary mental fart.

Chris
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2004, 09:47 AM
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My Bad. Temporary mental fart.

Chris [/B]
I get those too. Internal stink!
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