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Old 06-14-2011, 08:28 AM
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How much can you sleeve down an engine?

How much can you sleeve down an engine without cooling, or any other, problems?
Would sleeving down, if even possible, .5" be ok?

Let's generally, for now, restrict the discussion to small block chevys.


Actually, why don't you just tell me everthing about sleeving.
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:30 AM
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Basicly you are restricted to what liners are available.Most are std. or over size. Check out you tube for instructions on sleeving.
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:35 AM
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If you try to make the cylinder bore size too small you run into restrictions on valve size and other mechanical restrictions. cylinder wall thickness is what it needs to be to hold the pressures of combustion and thicker walls will not have too much effect on cooling provided there is sufficient flow of coolant.

Sam
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:19 PM
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The decimal you have used is 1/2 inch. Yes, you could sleeve a small block Chevy 1/2" with a special thick-wall sleeve (0.250" walls). Assuming you began with a 350 block with a 4.000" bore, the result would be a 267 cubic inch motor that would be very heavy. As Sam said, you would be limited on valve size. In this case, you would have to use a cylinder head from a '79-'82 262 motor that came stock from Chevrolet with a 3.500" bore so that the valves would fit inside the bore diameter. The motor would be heavy and it would be a wheezer, making very little power.

Now, if you will loosen up and tell us what's really on your mind, perhaps we can help you figure it out.
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:34 PM
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Tech,
If the OP really wanted a 265 that goes like stink I would start with a 350 block and get a billet of 4340 and go see Steve at Eagle Machine and have him whittle me up a crank of the proper stroke to make it a 265. then some dart heads and roller cam and so forth..how about putting that in the dyno sim..

Sam
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneMoreTime
Tech,
If the OP really wanted a 265 that goes like stink I would start with a 350 block and get a billet of 4340 and go see Steve at Eagle Machine and have him whittle me up a crank of the proper stroke to make it a 265. then some dart heads and roller cam and so forth..how about putting that in the dyno sim..
Sam
Be glad to Sam, as soon as we determine what the OP really wants to do. He may be afraid of being riduculed if he asks an off-the-wall question.

On another forum, I simmed a 348 made from a 400 block and 327 crank. Running on E85 @15.0:1, it made over 700 hp with
Brodix STS18SPX 254cc intake runner heads. (going into a nostalgia gasser '57 Chevy 210 sedan).
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:39 PM
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Alright, i'll put it on the table:

After more thought and trial and error, i've "decided" that my original plan is not going to fly.

What i need(ed)[not nessesarily in order of importance because i was/am a little misguided although the picture is getting much clearer...] is:

1) extreme reliablity/easy/cheap to diagnoise/fix----daily commuting etc. Hence sbc and derivatives.

2) good mpg----As of last week, i would define "good" in this case as 20+mpg. After last night i would define "good" as hopefully 18mpg

3) towing ability---realistically i only need 5000lbs trailer capacity max. But this is still kinda of marginal for a 1/2 ton pickup. So we may have to consider 3/4 ton and greater and this affects mpg accordingly.

4) Not to spend too much money(or time) achieving all this.

My original plan as of last week was to get a 200cid v-6---same as sbc minus 2 cylinders. The reasoning was it would bolt right in place of the 8cyl sbc 305 that is in there now with no hassle aside from possible exhaust differences which could easily be taken care of at the exhaust shop, but everything essentially bolts in, and easy cheap maintenance because it's a sbc(Remember i want "hard core" reliability), and good mpg; Because of only 200 cubes, i'm thinking the mpg in a 1/2 ton truck would be 18, possibly 20 or more mpg unloaded.

The first problem is that gm doesn't sell this engine anymore at least not in this size, so the next alternative is junkyards because i don't trust any of the engine rebuilders with the possible exception of jasper but i don't think they carry it either unless you find them one and ship it to them. So i thought about the concept of buying a new or remanufactured 4.3 (262 cid) v-6 from gm and possibly sleeving it down to 200 or smaller cid. i figured this might be easier, but then i though that just getting the 200 from a junkyard and rebuilding it---or possibly running it as is if it checks out would be easier. So i don't think sleeve idea doesn't really need to go further.

The second problem is that i tried towing last night with a 305 and it couldn't really cut it. It moved the load alright, but really struggled. Flat terrain was ok, but any sort of incline forget it--no acceleration even with the pedal on the floor. i also had trouble maintaining the speed limit. The 305 was just sweating bullets trying to keep up. Not good to have tractor trailers bearing down on you. The car was light--a little under 2000lbs and the trailer being a tandem axle was about 1500 give or take. So only 3500 or so lbs. and it still struggled.

So the original question is moot. If anything i need to go bigger.

Diesel would be great, but the high initial cost and learning curve(for me) don't make it attractive or viable.

i'm thinking the L31 crate may be a good option and should get about 18ish mpg unloaded. i can sort of accept this compromise. This would be about 2K after all is said and done.

Another good looking alternative is there used chevy colorados going for 11-14K and while that is a hugh chunk of change it does satisfy most of my requirements:

They are rated for a 5500lb trailer if equipped with the 5 cylinder.

23 mpg unloaded

i still need a daily driver as well, so i'm ok with spending 14K considering i would be up and running in no time.

Just some options i'm throwing out there.

The 305 usually gets anywhere between 15.3 and 16.5ish empty.

Last nights specs were:
270.3 miles 17.452 gallons = 15.488 mpg partially with empty trailer
203.7 miles 14.646 gallons = 13.90 mpg 153 miles were loaded with car.
198.1 miles 14.975 gallons = 13.22 mpg all miles were loaded with car.
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Old 06-19-2011, 01:50 PM
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An L31 with a cam change might be the best way to go. Work on some programming with the EFI and run the right gears, it should hit the mpg target you have.

But I'll throw something else out there, just for arguments sake. A 5.3L LS swap. No harder to fix than the Gen I, but a much better motor all around, and can be bought for peanuts. Keep it stock except for some headers and some computer programming. The newest versions get something like 21 mpg rated in a half ton Silverado.

If you wanted to go diesel, and they aren't that hard to learn about, a Cummins 3.9 will fit with mounts from Mill Supply for the stepvan. Gets great mpg, but the motor is a little "vibey". There are enough suppliers out there to put a 5.9 Cummins in with no problem. I got over 20 mpg in my first gen Dodge dually with a 727 and 4.10s empty. With an overdrive and 3.42s, you could do better than that.

Me, just to do something different, a freshened 305, a set of Vortec heads, a TPI unit and a turbo with about 6-8 psi of boost.
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by against all odds
Last nights specs were:
270.3 miles 17.452 gallons = 15.488 mpg partially with empty trailer
203.7 miles 14.646 gallons = 13.90 mpg 153 miles were loaded with car.
198.1 miles 14.975 gallons = 13.22 mpg all miles were loaded with car.
You drove 672.1 miles "last night" to get these figures?? The speed you travel has a huge effect on mileage as well.

At 80 mph it would have taken you 8.4 hours, no stops or slowdowns....
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68NovaSS
You drove 672.1 miles "last night" to get these figures?? The speed you travel has a huge effect on mileage as well.

At 80 mph it would have taken you 8.4 hours, no stops or slowdowns....
Hey, we truckers do it all the time! Just kiddin' ( hope the DOT doesn't see this )
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Old 06-19-2011, 03:07 PM
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Go here www.fullsizechevy.com Most of the trucks here are getting between 9-25mpg depending on how you set it up have a good tune chip burnt headers moded tbi and spacer's and so on! My son and I are working on the same concept 25mpg 350 street truck/tow hauler! Also there is the Erod motor set up from GM 400 HP 25mpg If money is not a problem!

Craig
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:12 PM
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1) If i did go with the L31 i'm thinking i might want to stay carb just to keep it simple although F.I. will almost certainly improve mpg even if only 1, 1.5,2 mpg. i don't think there's a provision for the mechanical fuel pump. No big deal to me.

1a) i'm really intrigued by the LS, but i'm worried that it would take time to get up and running because of the possible electronics "nightmare." i know there are relatively easy ways to run a carb with them though. But yes, the LS would solve my mpg, power, and cost requirements easily.

1b) If i did go with diesel then i would want the 6.2/6.5 due to the fact that it is pretty much a bolt in deal. The more i think about it, the more it would not be that big of a learning curve. However, i would want to rebuild a used 6.2 vs. buying a new one from gm---$8k. Much cheaper to rebuild. So, the rebuilding part might take a while as i'm unfamiliar with them.

1c) It's funny you mention turbo, because i'm thinking of resurrecting the 200 v-6 idea and using a single or twin turbo system(or centrifugal blower kit or roots kit) and i think my mpg and power requirements would be satisfied.

2) Ok, i said "last night," i meant i started at 1pm and ended at about 4am.

3) Tell me more about your 25mpg tow project. i think 20mpg is realistic and doable although i would love 24-25mpg unloaded. After last week's "ordeal" i would be willing to settle and accept 18mpg unloaded.


i am still crunching numbers and i see some mid-sized colorados going for 11-14K at carmax. i could and would use this also as a daily driver and i think 23 mpg is pretty good with the ability to tow 5500lbs (although i have no idea how stable it will feel).

i am willing to trade some $$$ for time.

Last edited by against all odds; 06-22-2011 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:57 PM
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Just to be different, I throw something into the mix. How about a straight six like a 292 and add fuel injection. What you really want for towing is torque, don't you? Couple that up to a 5 speed transmission and you could have the best of both worlds, loaded or unloaded. Plug that into the sim!
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:20 PM
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Okay, now that I got you laughing, let's look at this link and see how much you laugh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Atlas_engine

Check this out, For 2006, power was increased to 291 hp (217 kW) at 6000 rpm and torque to 277 ftlbf (376 Nm) at 4800 rpm with the addition of a MAF and a complete internal redesign of the engine.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:34 PM
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Well first of all is this atlas engine the same as the chevy straight six (192, 230, 250 etc.) that's been around for years or a totally new engine?

The reason why i'm shying away from the straight 6 is that i don't think the fuel economy is there considering the torque/towing parameters i've set. In other words i would need AT LEAST 250 cubes to get the job done. In that case why not go with the 90 degree v-6 or v-8 small block and basically get the same mpg while producing more power?

Now the atlas IS the engine in the colorado that i've been tooting lately. And it suits my requirements to a T.

I'm thinking that due to the higher power and mpg ratings of the ATLAS that it is either a redesign of the chevy straight 6 or a totally new engine? In either case, i like it.

i think this thread has gotten way off the original topic and i'll start a new one soon dealing with towing.

P.S. You know what would really be wild is to put this atlas engine in the new base camaro------because that's how the first ones were equipped? With straight 6's.
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