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Old 09-27-2011, 12:00 PM
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Hog,
These are all customer cars that I've built 4L60E's for. 2 are out of Philly and the other is out of Baltimore. All are street driven quite often.

Here's a few more of my customers abusing their 4L60E's...





I'm not trying to advertise...Just showing how much a propewrly built 700/4L60E will handle... These cars can launch like this and last 4,5, or 6 years long.

Frank

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Old 09-27-2011, 12:14 PM
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Both of these are 700R4 cars. The Vette was originally a 6 speed, and the Mazda RX7 has a nitroused LT1 in it. The Vette runs 10.96 and the RX7 runs 11.0...



Frank
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:18 PM
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This is what happens if you use a sleeved drum with a multi disc converter...


Breaks the center out of the drum... This was a "Monster" transmission. It was so trashed, it took me 2 days to get it apart.

Frank
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:48 PM
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These are some common failure areas in the 700/4L60E.

The late 700/4L60E's used single cage (SKF-French) input sprags. I see these break very often in stock vehicles. They will definitely NOT handle hard launches. The last picture is of an earlier 700 "double cage" sprag. GM changed the design as a cost saving measure. I use the Borg-Warner 29 element sprag in ALL my 700/4L60E build!

This is a broken sun shell. When this happens, you lose 2nd gear, 4th gear, and reverse. You should NEVER reuse a sun shell in a 4L60E! Everything should get "The Beast" shell in it!

This is an aluminum forward piston that I mentioned cracks in the 700/4L60E. When this happens, you'll either lose forward gears, or it will slip very badly..


Other high failure areas...Especially in race applications are repeated 3-4 clutch failure. This is a result of the GM design, but if you know what you're doing it can be fixed. Repeated 2-4 band failure...Again, it can be fixed. The 4L60E's are notorious for snapping output shafts in hard launching or heavy vehicles. There are billet shafts available, and GM offers a "hardened" shaft from a 4L65E. I've had the '65E shafts break, though. The 700 seems to have a stronger shaft and I have yet to see one of them break. The internal input hubs are known for breaking in high HP applications in 700/4L60E's. GM offers a "hardened" hub from the 4L65E that seems to work well.

Just remember...Using an ATSG manual to rebuild your own 700/4L60E is great. But, even if you get it to work, you've built all the same GM design flaws back into it...

Frank
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Old 09-27-2011, 09:30 PM
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Ok....I'm back, sorry for not responding to any of the reply's but I was on a 1200 mile bonsai run up to Boise, Id. and back home to So. Utah. I sold my '32 Victoria body to a guy, part of the deal was me delivering it.....20 hours of driving on 1 hr of sleep.....I was on fumes when I got home.

Anywho let me clear up some misconceptions or confusion and no offense, I know you guys are trying to help. This car will weigh 2800 lbs. so it will fry the tires if I get on it too hard. It's a street rod with A/C, gonna be a cruiser not a race car, although it will have some suds. So, someone mentioned torque not hp is the culprit, I know that's why I asked how much torque can they handle........someone mentioned a manual valve body and trans brake, this is race stuff, never mentioned it, not even in the equation.........The adapter from Cad bolt pattern to the trans. is a Wilcap and last but not least I built a driveshaft loop a long time ago for this chassis. even with the 331" SBC.

Looks like 10scnd70 knows what he's talking about, I was looking at a video where the owner was showing the mods he did to a 700, I believe he mentioned putting a sleeve on the shaft.(?????) dunno. thanks anyway for all the info, like I tell new guys, the more you educate yourself, the less chance you have of making a mistake or getting screwed...........Dave

Last edited by 327NUT; 09-27-2011 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:13 AM
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Good Info Frank,
I see why the Steel Piston can't be used with a sleeved Drum. >> http://www.sonnax.com/system/instruc...733-01K-IN.pdf
What do you use, Hardened Drum?

TC's with Multi Disc TCC such as the Vigilante 3, 5 & 7 Discs do have a very firm Lockup. Many people complain about them being very noisy at Idle, like marbles rattling around. They send them back for repair, which basically tightens up the clutch clearances, then the Clutches burn up in no time. No win situation. Most end up going with a Non-Lockup TC.
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:21 AM
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I use completely stock drums, and have never had one break. I've ran across that Sonnax set up that uses a steel forward piston with an aluminum over-run piston. EVERY ONE OF THEM has wasted forwards and over-runs. Forward clutches are not a high failure area in a 700/4L60E unless the piston is cracked. This is a perfect example of a "performance part" that causes more problems than it solves. So, Sonnax instructs you to put a weaker (aluminum) piston in, to use this "modification" that isn't neccessary.

Frank

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Old 09-28-2011, 10:10 AM
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Thanks for the info Frank.

Do you have any input on the Sonnax Smartshell, 77749-02K?
Do you like the actual GM 5 pinion plates, or GM 4 pinion planets?

I do some PCM tuning as well, as a builder what changes if any do like to see tune'wise to accompany your transmissions?

I notice that stock GM calibrations lock the TCC of 80e's at TPS% of 87% and higher in 2nd gear in the 3/4 ton+ trucks and at WOT above 75% in 3rd gear in the 1/2 tons with the 60e's. Any idea why GM would do this? To keep temps down? I get better et's if I dont lock in 3rd, but mph is up.


327NUT, with a weight of 2800 lbs, keeping a well built 700/60e together shouldnt be an issue. Your car should accelerate VERY well.

peace
Hog
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Old 09-28-2011, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogg
Thanks for the info Frank.

Do you have any input on the Sonnax Smartshell, 77749-02K?
Do you like the actual GM 5 pinion plates, or GM 4 pinion planets?

I do some PCM tuning as well, as a builder what changes if any do like to see tune'wise to accompany your transmissions?

I notice that stock GM calibrations lock the TCC of 80e's at TPS% of 87% and higher in 2nd gear in the 3/4 ton+ trucks and at WOT above 75% in 3rd gear in the 1/2 tons with the 60e's. Any idea why GM would do this? To keep temps down? I get better et's if I dont lock in 3rd, but mph is up.


327NUT, with a weight of 2800 lbs, keeping a well built 700/60e together shouldnt be an issue. Your car should accelerate VERY well.

peace
Hog
Smart shell? LOL...How many times have you ever seen the 4 tang plastic washer worn in a 700/4L60E? The shell doesn't even ride on that washer. The shell rides on the snap ring on the sun gear, which rides on the bearing in the rear planetary. With that in mind, what are we accomplishing by replacing a washer with a bearing? The only time that washer sees use is if the rear sprag inner race moves forward. I've been using The Beast shell in everything for 12-13 years now.
% pinion planetaries aren't neccessary. They also add alot of weight. Most planet failures are due to the bearing coming apart and shedding needles. The only GOOD 5 pinion planetaries are original GM ones. I've seen aftermarket 5 pinions blow apart at low milage.
I ALWAYS request that pressure be set back to stock with my builds. I work closely with PCMForLess to tune stuff for me. For the most part, it's just shift timing mods.
Yeah, I'm aware of the higher MPH in SOME vehicles, but ET wins drag races...Not MPH...LOL

Frank
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10scnd70
Smart shell? LOL...How many times have you ever seen the 4 tang plastic washer worn in a 700/4L60E? The shell doesn't even ride on that washer. The shell rides on the snap ring on the sun gear, which rides on the bearing in the rear planetary. With that in mind, what are we accomplishing by replacing a washer with a bearing? The only time that washer sees use is if the rear sprag inner race moves forward. I've been using The Beast shell in everything for 12-13 years now.
% pinion planetaries aren't neccessary. They also add alot of weight. Most planet failures are due to the bearing coming apart and shedding needles. The only GOOD 5 pinion planetaries are original GM ones. I've seen aftermarket 5 pinions blow apart at low milage.
I ALWAYS request that pressure be set back to stock with my builds. I work closely with PCMForLess to tune stuff for me. For the most part, it's just shift timing mods.
Yeah, I'm aware of the higher MPH in SOME vehicles, but ET wins drag races...Not MPH...LOL

Frank
Ya Bryan's a good guy, you also must be the builder of Pat Gish's 9 second B-body. We have mutual interests in L31 trucks, he has had good results in his truck with his Yank 3600. Bryans L31 tune also works very well on his truck.

I was curious about the Smart shell sinces its so new.

Sounds like you are havuing good luck with the 700/60e's.

Thanks again for all the info.

peace
Hog
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:29 PM
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the problem with the "smart shell" is two fold as I see it. The same design was (or is still) used by a company that called it the "torque drive" shell.

The design still uses a weak OEM drive shell... and where the OEM drums are balanced. That balance process puts small holes (3/8") punched out of the drive shell in the area near the 'fingers' that align with the reverse input drum housing.

Those holes allow the shell to pull apart at that spot under a heavy - power load. I have photos of this if I can find them. I may have to wake up the hamster that powers my old PC

Simply use the 'beast ' drive shell and all seems fine.


found it:



Also the sleeve for the 700r4 type of aluminum drum works well. I have used hundreds of the design. Aluminum pistons do crack. You can cryo treat the drums / pistons or use steel molded rubber piston with aluminum over run piston modified to work with the steel piston
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Last edited by Crosley; 09-29-2011 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosley
Also the sleeve for the 700r4 type of aluminum drum works well. I have used hundreds of the design. Aluminum pistons do crack. You can cryo treat the drums / pistons or use steel molded rubber piston with aluminum over run piston modified to work with the steel piston
No you can't use steel forward with aluminum over-run pistone...I've seen quite a few try it and waste the forwards and over-runs. If you read the Sonnax instruction, It specifically states that you can't mix the pistons...
http://www.sonnax.com/system/instruc...733-01K-IN.pdf
Frank
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:57 PM
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10scnd70, I appreciate the good info.

What are your thoughts on the TH2004R for high performance use? Any advantages or disadvantages compared to the TH700R4/4L60/4L60E? I'm aware of the ratio differences between the two, but is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
10scnd70, I appreciate the good info.

What are your thoughts on the TH2004R for high performance use? Any advantages or disadvantages compared to the TH700R4/4L60/4L60E? I'm aware of the ratio differences between the two, but is there anything else we should be aware of?

Thanks in advance.
I've built quite a few 2004R's for some pretty wicked Grang Nationals. I've got alot of them in the 10's. The biggest weak point in the 2004R is the shaft breaking off the forward rum. I use Art Carr hardened drums to prevent this. This also makes it neccessary to change the input ring gear. I do prefer the 3:08 first gear ratio in the 700/4L60E, and I do think they can handle more power. The 2004R seems to be a little harder on 3rd gear clutches, no matter what you do. Swaps are a little more troublesome with a 2004R because of the mount location... Not to mention the fact that you have to drop the pan if you have to fine tune a governor. I know there are quite a few Super Stock cars out there running 200's. :ighter and less HP to turn. I'd like to see inside one to see what they do to these things to make them hold up. The planetaries in a 200/2004R look like thay belong in a riding lawnmower...LOL... But, they seem to work.

Frank
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10scnd70
No you can't use steel forward with aluminum over-run pistone...I've seen quite a few try it and waste the forwards and over-runs. If you read the Sonnax instruction, It specifically states that you can't mix the pistons...
http://www.sonnax.com/system/instruc...733-01K-IN.pdf
Frank

Yes, you can use the steel forward piston with an aluminum over run piston that is modified. Do not tell me I can not, i've done it with out failures.

Remember I've been at this trans thing longer than you. i've built over 200 of the 4L60 trans per yr for years. I have a bit of experience too.

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