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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2011, 06:19 AM
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One other item not mentioned here ( If I missed it) The design Sonnax uses here on the aluminum drum was in use years before Sonnax produced their kit.

We used a common t-400 speed-O bullet rubber O-ring on the inside of the machined over run aluminum piston to slide over the steel sleeve on the 700 aluminum drum.

There is also a Speedy Sleeve that can be used with very slight machine work to the over run aluminum piston. Very simple procedure. Speedy sleeve are common use on harmonic balancers worn locations by hard rubber seals

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Old 09-30-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Crosley
Yes, you can use the steel forward piston with an aluminum over run piston that is modified. Do not tell me I can not, i've done it with out failures.

Remember I've been at this trans thing longer than you. i've built over 200 of the 4L60 trans per yr for years. I have a bit of experience too.

Want to put one of you're 4L60E's up, head to head against one of mine?
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:11 PM
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Why bother? With the size of your ego , there is only room for one car on the track at a time.

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Old 09-30-2011, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Crosley
Why bother? With the size of your ego , there is only room for one car on the track at a time.

I'll find a candidate. We'll both build a 4L60E for one of the Impalas that are in the bottom 10's or high 9's. Simple...We'll put yours in first. After it granades on the first pass, we'll out mine in. After you see how much a properly built 4L60E will do, maybe I'll even teach you how to build one. There's a good reason my company tee shirts say, "It ai'nt bragging, if you back it up". I have some of the quickest 4L60E's in the country. I have 4L60E's in Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Mexico, and just about every state in the U.S. I get transmissions shipped to me from California, Texas< Florida, etc. for a good reason. I'm ranked in the top 5 4L60E builders in the country. I thrive on competition, so if you've got that much confidence in your 4L60Es than take me up on the challenge. Unless you're Carl Rossler, I'm not afraid of anything you bring to the table.

Frank
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2011, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 10scnd70
....I'm ranked in the top 5 4L60E builders in the country....
Oh really - Ranked by who?? Show us what you got, surely that came with a huge hat, or something.
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Old 09-30-2011, 10:15 PM
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Oh really - Ranked by who?? Show us what you got, surely that came with a huge hat, or something.
Within the past 3-4 years, all the F-Body and B-Body forums have rated transmission builders. I've been consistaly in the top 5 on all of them. They're aren't many out there that can build a 9 second 4L60E...Especially one that will last 3,4.or 5 years. Read back through this thread. There are quite a few pictures of cars with my 4L60's in them. Hell, pick up the September issue of GM High Tech. The feature car in the article "Cruisin The Coast" is a '94 LT1, all motor Z28 that runs 10.58. A transmission I shipped to Alabama...And yes, I'm given credit for the transmission in the article.

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Old 09-30-2011, 10:40 PM
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2011, 10:48 PM
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http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ast/index.html

Frank
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2011, 08:19 AM
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Frank,

I dont fear anything Rossler brings to the table. It is always a good and interesting experience to pull a Rossler product apart. The Coan boys are purty sharp too, nice workmanship.

You like challenges?

Post an "education of 4L60E building" on the forum. Educate me and the forum members on how you build the 4L60e. Not the whole trans, lets pick one area. The 3-4 clutches in the aluminum input drum is a constant failure area for members that visit Hotrodders.com. Show the membership how that drum is modified and built for the power and durability you put into the 4L60e.

The use of thicker regular steel plates to address heat is common knowledge to performance builders. We avoid Kolene steels.

I look forward to your post on that drum and how "Frank" builds, adjusts, sets clearances, modifies it for the power and durability in a low 10 second car. Perhaps related areas on how you get more oil to that drum?

I would also suggest you gather notes for a book if you have not.

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Old 10-02-2011, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Crosley
Frank,

I dont fear anything Rossler brings to the table. It is always a good and interesting experience to pull a Rossler product apart. The Coan boys are purty sharp too, nice workmanship.

You like challenges?

Post an "education of 4L60E building" on the forum. Educate me and the forum members on how you build the 4L60e. Not the whole trans, lets pick one area. The 3-4 clutches in the aluminum input drum is a constant failure area for members that visit Hotrodders.com. Show the membership how that drum is modified and built for the power and durability you put into the 4L60e.

The use of thicker regular steel plates to address heat is common knowledge to performance builders. We avoid Kolene steels.

I look forward to your post on that drum and how "Frank" builds, adjusts, sets clearances, modifies it for the power and durability in a low 10 second car. Perhaps related areas on how you get more oil to that drum?

I would also suggest you gather notes for a book if you have not.

What part of I don't have input drum failures don't you understand? I've NEVER had a drum or input shaft failure in anything I've built. Again, this is part of educating yourself and your customer. I find it ironic that you're still doing things backwards. You're using sleeved drums and not Kolene 3-4 steels. You do know you can get Kolene steels in '080", right. Do you need a list of customers that are running in the 9's or 10's to get in touch with you to confirm this? I don't have band failures. I don't have 3-4 c;utch failures, and I've certainly never had an input drum or input shaft failure..Oh wait, back in '08, I had a forward drum that blew the 3'4 snap ruing lugs out after 6 months, because the owner cranked his line pressure up. Read this carefully, again...I"VE NEVER HAD AN INPUT DRUM RIP THE SPLINES OUT! If you'd bother to read all the posts in the forum you moderate, you'd see that I've already explained what causes drum failure. I've got 3700# F-Bodies cutting 1.46 60 ft. times an a 4300# Impala cutting 1.5 60 ft. times with stock drums. I use a standard UNSLEEVED factory input drum. If you're using anything else and you still have drum failures, then you're doing something wrong. The same suspicion I have about your question about the 3-4 clutches. You want to know how I set mine up because you're obviously still having problems gettibng your to live. Do you even know where the 3rd accumulator is on a 4L60E? We'll Give you a few moments to look it up, so you can make everyone here think you do. Are you still using load release springs in the 3-4's? Are you still using a "Corvette" or Sonnax 2 nd servo? Still using factory O'D servos? You still using stock slide springs, in the pump? Still have customers using multi disc converters? Input drums are easy. My only failure point is people breaking output shafts because they don't want to pay $550 for a billet one.
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of an instructional video, rather than a book. I'll make sure to send you a copy so you can stop breaking input drums and wasting 3'4 clutches...

Frank
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2011, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10scnd70
What part of I don't have input drum failures don't you understand? I've NEVER had a drum or input shaft failure in anything I've built. Again, this is part of educating yourself and your customer. I find it ironic that you're still doing things backwards. You're using sleeved drums and not Kolene 3-4 steels. You do know you can get Kolene steels in '080", right. Do you need a list of customers that are running in the 9's or 10's to get in touch with you to confirm this? I don't have band failures. I don't have 3-4 c;utch failures, and I've certainly never had an input drum or input shaft failure..Oh wait, back in '08, I had a forward drum that blew the 3'4 snap ruing lugs out after 6 months, because the owner cranked his line pressure up. Read this carefully, again...I"VE NEVER HAD AN INPUT DRUM RIP THE SPLINES OUT! If you'd bother to read all the posts in the forum you moderate, you'd see that I've already explained what causes drum failure. I've got 3700# F-Bodies cutting 1.46 60 ft. times an a 4300# Impala cutting 1.5 60 ft. times with stock drums. I use a standard UNSLEEVED factory input drum. If you're using anything else and you still have drum failures, then you're doing something wrong. The same suspicion I have about your question about the 3-4 clutches. You want to know how I set mine up because you're obviously still having problems gettibng your to live. Do you even know where the 3rd accumulator is on a 4L60E? We'll Give you a few moments to look it up, so you can make everyone here think you do. Are you still using load release springs in the 3-4's? Are you still using a "Corvette" or Sonnax 2 nd servo? Still using factory O'D servos? You still using stock slide springs, in the pump? Still have customers using multi disc converters? Input drums are easy. My only failure point is people breaking output shafts because they don't want to pay $550 for a billet one.
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of an instructional video, rather than a book. I'll make sure to send you a copy so you can stop breaking input drums and wasting 3'4 clutches...

Frank
Your failure to answer the question would make everyone conclude you dont know the answer to the question.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2011, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by T-bucket23
Your failure to answer the question would make everyone conclude you dont know the answer to the question.

It appears Frank is not up to the challenge to 'educate' members here. LOL

Re-read my post Frank, not read "Into" the post what your mind puts there. LOL

Frank, I can walk in to the parts room and pick up thin or thick Kolene steels. I dont use them.

You mention use of Billet servo on the band of the trans. That sorta modifies the 3rd gear accumilator system a bit.

Let me educate you on what I do lately.

Watch this 5 minute video dyno pull Youtube video ... it is the type of power I deal with that past few years. Your 4L60E will not survive that.

LOL Frank , LOL , I dont want or need the spotlite like you. I had mag articles on my stuff in the 1980's, stuff on the covers too. My thought on it now? B F D

Real simple Frank, You joined up here to sell your products since your first few posts included URL and parts sales prices. I edited those items out per the guidelines here setup by Jon the admin guy. You tossed out a fit of anger at me. That is fine Frank.

Now I offered a challenge to you on a simple deal to help the membership here. So far it appears you build a stock 4L60e and use programing to preserve it's life. Which I find interesting since in a different thread you could even answer a base GM programing question a fellow had on speed limiter and shifts to 4th gear at WOT on a Silverado SS truck.

Keep up the good work Frank. Moderators here have already received complaints from membership on your annoying attitude which I am sure you could not care less about.

I pointed out I use aluminum over run piston in the steel molded forward piston. You quote instructions from Sonnax engineers (you seem to dislike engineers)..... Get the parts in front of you Frank. Figure it out like I did. Very simple process, the answer is right in front of you as you look at the pistons.

You may be rated in top five 4L60E builders in the world... you need to work on your personality

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2011, 12:52 PM
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If you people would read through posts, I HAVE answered these questions already. ANYTIME ANYONE wants to put a 4L60E head to head with one of mine, bring it on! I have many cars in the 12's, 11's, 10's, and 9's that prove my work. As I've asked...Does ANYBODY else here have an Impala SS in the 9's with a 60E? NO!, they don't! Is anyone else even close? No, they're not! Crosley, it's simple. You want information from me, so you know how to build one. It's OK to admit that someone else is better than you.

You post a video of a dyno motor for what reason? Does it have one of your 4L60E's hanging on it? Care to post ANY articles that relate to your transmissions? I'm all about "show me". If the fact that there's a BETTER transmission builder here than you are, maybe you should feel threatened and I'm quite certain you've whined to the moderators. You just can't accept the fact that someone is doing something with a 4L60E that you could only dream about. Show me ANY proof of an 11second vehicle you've built a '60E for. We won't even request a 10 or 9 second vehicle.

The input drum queastin is too easy. The fact is, even inf I post the layout, you'll try to pick it apart, but yet I have countless cars that prove it works. A stock drum with a steel piston set will do the job. Kolene over-run steels, BW over-run frictions, 4 BW .070" forward frictions, 1 BW .080" forward friction, stock pressure plates and forward wave, 5.090: forward steels, factory thickness 3-4 top and bottom pressure plates, 7 BW High Energy 3-4 frictions, For 3-4 steels I use 6 Kolene .080"...Just because they work. If they don't work for you, you're obviously doing something else wrong! Sometimes you might have to replace one of the .080"'s with a .063" to get a little more clearance. If you jam more clutches or steels in the 3-4's, the steels will warp. Using 1 ,063" doesn't seem to create an issue. I DO NOT reuse the "load release" springs in ANY 700/4L60E. A BW 29 element input sprag with factory races will go 1.4 60 ft. times. "Solid" teflon rings on the input shaftNow, you atleast know how to build a forward drum, so atleast that part of your 4L60E will be right.
I'm not advertising my buisness anymore. The fact that you're intimidated is the only thing I'm doing wrong. You can call that Cocky if you want. I'm one of the best at what I do, and I'm willing to take on all challengers to prove that. If you're wrong about something, I'm going to call you on it...Just like YOU ARE on the steel/aluminum piston mismatch.

Frank
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Old 10-02-2011, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Crosley
the problem with the "smart shell" is two fold as I see it. The same design was (or is still) used by a company that called it the "torque drive" shell.

The design still uses a weak OEM drive shell... and where the OEM drums are balanced. That balance process puts small holes (3/8") punched out of the drive shell in the area near the 'fingers' that align with the reverse input drum housing.

Those holes allow the shell to pull apart at that spot under a heavy - power load. I have photos of this if I can find them. I may have to wake up the hamster that powers my old PC

Simply use the 'beast ' drive shell and all seems fine.


found it:



Also the sleeve for the 700r4 type of aluminum drum works well. I have used hundreds of the design. Aluminum pistons do crack. You can cryo treat the drums / pistons or use steel molded rubber piston with aluminum over run piston modified to work with the steel piston
Crosley, thank-you for answering my question. I think its good to discuss newer/different products as they show up on the market.

What do you like for converters?
I went from a stock Vortec 350/L31 TC to the DCLF V6 converter and get around 2800-2900 brake stall. It has certainly helped to reduce the horrible rpm drop the wide ratio 700/60e/65e 3.06 1st gear and 1.6:1 2nd gears induce. The newer 6l80e/90e's are even worse.
The 700/60e parts appear beefier than the 200r4 parts, but I really do like the 2.75:1 1st and 1.57:1 2nd gearing of the 200r4, esp. when it has to be used with a more streetable non-race converter. Then its got the higher 0.67:1 OD over the 700/60e's 0.70:1, worth around 200rpm at cruise.

Going from 700/60e to th-350's usually drop et's 3-4 tenths around here, but the 60 fts do suffer a tenth or 2.

Thanks again for the info.

peace
Hog
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Old 10-02-2011, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Hogg
Ya Bryan's a good guy, you also must be the builder of Pat Gish's 9 second B-body. We have mutual interests in L31 trucks, he has had good results in his truck with his Yank 3600. Bryans L31 tune also works very well on his truck.

I was curious about the Smart shell sinces its so new.

Sounds like you are havuing good luck with the 700/60e's.

Thanks again for all the info.

peace
Hog
I no pat gish. His impala does not run 9's. It runs 11.0's and he made one 10.99 pas at cecil county dragway with me there witnessimg it.
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