Hyd. Roller lifters problems - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 07:48 AM
hotrodf1's Avatar
Chasing dreams with a ball bat
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Evansville, IN
Age: 36
Posts: 545
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hyd. Roller lifters problems

Hey guys, sorry for the long read, seems like my questions always are.

I'm having more issues with my valvetrain on the camaro (SBC 406, hyd. roller). Back when I built this motor I had trouble adjusting the preload on the lifters. I didn't really understand why, but my buddy helped me adjust them with the engine running and all seemed well for the moment.

Fast forward to now, and I have been hearing a funny valvetrain "noise" at 6500 RPM and up. Thought it was valve float, so changed to the proper dual springs (that's another story).

Upon putting valvetrain back together, I again have the issue with adjusting the preload on the lifters. If I set at 0 lash plus 1/4 turn, four of the 16 lifters will not pump any oil, and will be making noise, the fix being to tighten them up several turns to get the plunger in the right dimension.

Here's where it gets weird. If I set 1 of the lifters in question next to one that is "good", you can see the difference in the angle between the two rockers (like the pushrod is .200" longer or something). It's a large difference. I don't know what could cause that to be wrong. I've made sure the pushrods are seated, same length, etc. It's just 4 lifters out of the 16 that do this (and it seems to be the same ones all the time). To set these lifters I have to just "guess" how far to tighten them, cause the 0 lash + 1/4 turn doesn't work.

Cyl. # 7 (which has one of the problem lifters, exhaust side) was making a lot of noise from one lifter (and not pumping any oil through the pushrod either), so I put my windowed valve cover on and adjusted it with it running, and the oil starts to flow as the clacking goes away. Now I notice the motor is running like crap, and when I crank it to start, it sounds like there's a bad cyl. in the motor.

So I get curious and do a compression check, and sure enough #7 has no compression. So I loosen the rocker just a little and the compression comes back, a little looser and it starts clacking again. It acts like a solid lifter. I don't get it.

What is with these lifters? I don't know if I need to replace or what? Lifters are Comp Magnum roller retros.

The motor has 3K miles on it with no problems to speak of (other than devil lifters).

ANyone have any insight on this? I could really use some help, all my car buddies tell me to throw the hyd. roller out and get a solid roller.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 08:12 AM
bigbadbowtie's Avatar
Bottle Fed
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Huntsville Alabama
Age: 40
Posts: 468
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I would 1st pull the oil filter and cut it open to look for any signs of "too much metal". 2nd... I would pull the intake to inspect the lifters.

The last part of your post almost sounds like you lost a roller on a lifter.
I would NOT run it any more until you do some looking under the intake.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 08:49 AM
hotrodf1's Avatar
Chasing dreams with a ball bat
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Evansville, IN
Age: 36
Posts: 545
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbowtie
I would 1st pull the oil filter and cut it open to look for any signs of "too much metal". 2nd... I would pull the intake to inspect the lifters.

The last part of your post almost sounds like you lost a roller on a lifter.
I would NOT run it any more until you do some looking under the intake.
Fair enough. I will jerk the intake and oil filter off tonight.

I have seen more metal than I would think is cool on my magnetic drain plug. Just a little ball of metal on the tip, not a lot, but more than I thought would be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 09:54 AM
Jmark's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: phoenix
Age: 60
Posts: 4,787
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
You also mention, if I'm reading it correctly, the rocker arm angle is different. I'll assume that both lifters are on the bottom of the ramp but the rockers look like they are sitting different? Almost leads me to think the lifters are different lengths or as stated, a roller is going down. (somewhat un-likely, but possible.)

Some metal on the plug is normal after breakin. Not big chunks, but there will be fine stuff making it's way out of the nooks and cranies (what are nooks and cranies anyway?) and always some off the cylinders/rings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 10:16 AM
hotrodf1's Avatar
Chasing dreams with a ball bat
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Evansville, IN
Age: 36
Posts: 545
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmark
You also mention, if I'm reading it correctly, the rocker arm angle is different. I'll assume that both lifters are on the bottom of the ramp but the rockers look like they are sitting different? Almost leads me to think the lifters are different lengths or as stated, a roller is going down. (somewhat un-likely, but possible.) .
Yes, both lifters on the base.

But the lifters in question are higher than the others (at the pushrod end). If the roller is having a problem, wouldn't that make it go lower (like a shorter pushrod)?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 10:51 AM
daoldbuick's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: kincardine ontario
Posts: 226
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
You said "6500 RPM and up". Just wondering how high "up" was?? and how high you think your motor should be able to go??
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 11:21 AM
302 Z28's Avatar  
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2003
Location: North Texas
Posts: 10,810
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 81 Times in 68 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by daoldbuick
You said "6500 RPM and up". Just wondering how high "up" was?? and how high you think your motor should be able to go??
Hehe, I was thinking the same thing. 6500rpm and up you hear all kinds of noises .

Vince
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 11:24 AM
bigbadbowtie's Avatar
Bottle Fed
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Huntsville Alabama
Age: 40
Posts: 468
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrodf1
Fast forward to now, and I have been hearing a funny valvetrain "noise" at 6500 RPM and up. Thought it was valve float, so changed to the proper dual springs (that's another story).

That right there also makes the think that it could be a roller issue. If you had incorrect springs on the heads and tried to spin it up tight, that lifter is using the lobe of the cam as a ramp if you will. It then slams back down on the base circle of the cam. It can beat the needles out of the rollers in a hurry. I know from experience with a solid roller. :-)

I could be way off on the needle bearings getting eat up but... it nevers hurts to check things out. It only cost the price of an oil change, intake gaskets and your time.


edit and you are correct... its makes no sense that the ones in question seem longer????

Last edited by bigbadbowtie; 08-28-2007 at 11:29 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 11:31 AM
hotrodf1's Avatar
Chasing dreams with a ball bat
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Evansville, IN
Age: 36
Posts: 545
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by daoldbuick
You said "6500 RPM and up". Just wondering how high "up" was?? and how high you think your motor should be able to go??
well, the cam should pull to at least 7000 rpm. I have actually shifted at 7400 before (had a helmet on at the track, didn't hear the noise i guess), and the car seemed to pull very well, i didn't notice a severe drop in power like i would think you'd get with valve float?!?!

Crane states that valve float should not occur until 7500 RPM, but thats with their lifters, which I don't have. Wouldn't think it would be that different, but hey.

I have big heads on this motor (bigger than I should), so turning it up is "good for it!"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 11:33 AM
hotrodf1's Avatar
Chasing dreams with a ball bat
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Evansville, IN
Age: 36
Posts: 545
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbowtie
That right there also makes the think that it could be a roller issue. If you had incorrect springs on the heads and tried to spin it up tight, that lifter is using the lobe of the cam as a ramp if you will. It then slams back down on the base circle of the cam. It can beat the needles out of the rollers in a hurry. I know from experience with a solid roller. :-)

I could be way off on the needle bearings getting eat up but... it nevers hurts to check things out. It only cost the price of an oil change, intake gaskets and your time.


edit and you are correct... its makes no sense that the ones in question seem longer????
Indeed. I am shrugging my shoulders at this one. I am not real experienced, but this is not making any sense. Maybe when I pull the intake it will make sense.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 11:39 AM
bigbadbowtie's Avatar
Bottle Fed
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Huntsville Alabama
Age: 40
Posts: 468
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Im hoping some of the engine gooroo regulars will chime in as well.

7000 is WAY up there for any hydraulic roller.

Last edited by bigbadbowtie; 08-28-2007 at 11:54 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 12:13 PM
hotrodf1's Avatar
Chasing dreams with a ball bat
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Evansville, IN
Age: 36
Posts: 545
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbowtie
Im hoping some of the engine gooroo regulars will chime in as well.

7000 is WAY up there for any hydraulic roller.
aw great. that's what I'm hearing from my racer buddies, too.

"but it works so great in the magazines and get you 50 HP!!"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 12:18 PM
RippinRon's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Thornbury, Ontario
Age: 33
Posts: 948
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbowtie
Im hoping some of the engine gooroo regulars will chime in as well.

7000 is WAY up there for any hydraulic roller.
But not for a solid roller!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2007, 12:29 PM
bigbadbowtie's Avatar
Bottle Fed
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Huntsville Alabama
Age: 40
Posts: 468
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RippinRon
But not for a solid roller!
True.....BUT he is running a hydraulic roller.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2007, 08:39 AM
hotrodf1's Avatar
Chasing dreams with a ball bat
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Evansville, IN
Age: 36
Posts: 545
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Oh Boy

I got everything taken apart yesterday.

Wanted to post some pics to see what you guys think.

THe first thing that happened was when I pulled the distributor out and noticed that some of the teeth were chewed up pretty bad. Only about half the teeth were this way See pic. below.

Any thoughts on what caused this? It seems to have happened recently. I did have the screws that hold the rotor on come loose at about 6500 RPM and the car quit running (actually this happened twice, even with lock tight). Could this have bent the dist. shaft slightly?

I have also included some pics of the cam teeth as well. Is this cam beyond using? The cam had a pressed on gear, maybe Crane would press a new gear for a small fee??

Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

I have pics of the lifters, too. Will post them in the next post.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	distrib teeth1_1.JPG
Views:	325
Size:	185.6 KB
ID:	24078   Click image for larger version

Name:	distrib teeth_1.JPG
Views:	389
Size:	178.4 KB
ID:	24079   Click image for larger version

Name:	cam gear 1_1.JPG
Views:	358
Size:	180.8 KB
ID:	24080   Click image for larger version

Name:	cam gear 2_1.JPG
Views:	356
Size:	167.9 KB
ID:	24081  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HYDRAULIC LIFTERS or HYDRAULIC ROLLER LIFTERS? SCHOONER Engine 1 10-26-2006 10:16 AM
After disassembly of hyd lifters, how to get air out Dubz Engine 19 05-14-2005 08:48 PM
Old SBC to New OE SBC ROLLER LIFTERS??? juveteach Engine 2 04-27-2004 08:08 AM
replace hydraulic roller lifters? FAIRLANE DUDE Engine 17 04-17-2004 07:14 AM
Safe to buy used roller lifters? unstable Engine 4 08-23-2003 04:52 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.