Hydrogen Burning Engine, no gas storage... - Page 7 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > General Discussion> Hotrodders' Lounge
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #91 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2009, 04:38 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,173
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 7
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberats
I guess what I am asking from you as a person with a PhD is Mathematical Proof, all you're doing is throwing fake numbers at me, maybe the ratio is correct but the consumption of air-fuel mix you posted was wrong. I asked for the per min. consumption of a 305cu.in. or 5.0L at 2500rpm in gal. or liters of fuel mix.
Fake numbers? sorry to inform you, but the stoich mix for air/gasoline is 14.7:1. That is not up for debate. That is chemical fact.

As far how much the engine consumes per minute, that is highly variable. I would need to know cam timing, throttle position, head flow, compression, thermostat temperature, operating temperature, exhaust flow models, vehicle weight, vehicle aerodynamic drag... the list is insane. Even then I can only guess. If we could magically come up with 1 + 1 = MPG then we wouldn't need EPA testing and everyone with a 305 would be getting the same MPG.

Quote:
Give me numbers, show me the math to support it. Once we can determine the size of the hydrolitic converter, we can find how many amps/voltage will be required extra and add to it for "kickdown" conditions. Then determine if we need one or two converters, one or two alternators or an extra battery or two.
I have given you math, proof, science, analogies, everything you need. You're still blinded by a very interesting faith in this, and no amount of effort on my part will convince you. Its not a factor of "how much" or "what volume," its a matter of violating the laws of physics. If you are too dense to look at the dozen or so references and explanations I've already given you then I will just leave you to fail on your own. I'll say this in bold type so maybe you'll get it this time. YOU CANNOT USE 'X' AMOUNT OF ENERGY TO CONVERT WATER TO A FUEL, THEN GET THE SAME 'X' OUT OF IT, LET ALONE HAVE 'X + Y' LEFT OVER TO CONVERT MORE WATER TO FUEL. It violates the laws of physics. What you are proposing is actually MORE than perpetual motion. You are suggesting that you can split water into a fuel, then reverse that by combusting it with zero loss, AND have spare energy left over to move the car.

Quote:
So you're saying Diesel does not ignite from compression ? Ah, oh, I see you're twisting it around nicely, common,
You don't read very well, do you? I never said that diesel doesn't ignite from compression. I said it DID. I said H and O will not ignite from compression.

Quote:
If you keep stomping on me I might as well ask you show me the PhD & the shop. Not that I care to see it.
Well, I'm not going to take my degree out of its frame and send it through the scanner, but here is one of the four shops I am responsible for: www.sakowskimotors.com. Want more? How about www.hollywoodhotrods.com? Still need more? How about the fact that my Sakowski Motors shop is now franchised in three states? Before you fluff up your amateur feathers, you might want to consider that we might know what we're talking about. You keep asking ME for proof. I don't have to prove what has already been disproven. YOU are responsible for proving to US that your idea works. Bring it.

If you can't grasp the simplest of physics, how do you plan to engineer an entire engine and supporting systems?

    Advertisement
Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #92 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2009, 04:42 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,173
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 7
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberats
Get a life dude.
I'm not into saving trees moron,
If you're not the solution, you are the problem.
Glad we could keep this adult.
Quick reply to this message
  #93 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2009, 04:51 PM
Cyberats's Avatar
Hydrogen Burning Engine, YES !
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California, USA
Age: 46
Posts: 48
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Read what I write, understand what I ask.

"YOU CANNOT USE 'X' AMOUNT OF ENERGY TO CONVERT WATER TO A FUEL, THEN GET THE SAME 'X' OUT OF IT, LET ALONE HAVE 'X + Y' LEFT OVER TO CONVERT MORE WATER TO FUEL. It violates the laws of physics."

I have said this REPEATEDLY, in more than one post, I am NOT trying to REUSE the water, RECAPTURE ANYTHING for further use. I do NOT want to use THAT faulty theory, I agree with you on THIS.
However, the incapacity to reuse the water exhausted, does not invalidate the works of the engine or the use of it.

As for consumption numbers, I DID NOT ASK FOR MPG, I asked for fuel mix consumed at 14.7:1 in one minute, what is the Volume needed ???
If you claim to need specifics, use my vehicle, although the Ford 5.0L is actually something like 4.92L or 302cu.in.. I DO NOT WANT MPG figures.
Use an engine with round numbers, make it easier on you, I just want consumption at an average RPM, in gal./min. or liter/min., static, no weight, no drive, no transmission.

Burning water allows for lower mpgs, but my guess is they will be higher, but that remains to be seen for much later.
Quick reply to this message
  #94 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2009, 05:01 PM
Cyberats's Avatar
Hydrogen Burning Engine, YES !
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California, USA
Age: 46
Posts: 48
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Curtis73 use this vehicle stats if you must

1990 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
Fuel Economy (city / hwy): 17/27 mpg (14/24 mpg actual)
Rear-Wheel Drive
Transmission: 4-Speed Automatic Overdrive
Engine Specifications: 5.0L 150hp V8(4.942L 302cu.in.)
Horsepower: 150
Torque (lb-ft): 270
Valves/Valve Configuration: 2 valves/cyl.
Displacement (cc) 4950
Bore X Stroke (in.) 4.00 X 3.00
Compression Ratio 8.9:1
Fuel Type/System No data/MPFI (EFI)
Timing Setup - 10 deg. off dead center (13-14deg. specific)
GVVW - 5200lbs.
Turbocharger No
Supercharger No
R - H
S - N/A
AX - 8
Other - TGCDD

Open/Lock/Ratio #
-----------------------
G / H / 2.26
B / C / 2.47
8 / M (NL Limited Slip)/ 2.73
7 / - / 3.07
Y / Z / 3.08
4 / D / 3.42
F / R / 3.45
5 / E / 3.27
6 / W / 3.73
2 / K / 3.55
A / - / 3.63
J / - / 3.85

AXLE INFO REAR - FORD 8.8" - 28 SPLINE AXLES
AXLE POSITION REAR
PINION TYPE STANDARD
COVER BOLTS 10.0
AXLE SPLINE COUNT 28.0
RATIO TO USE LOW RATIO CASE N/A
RING GEAR DIAMETER 8.8
PINION SHAFT DIAMETER 1.63
RING GEAR BOLT QTY - SIZE 10 - 7/16in x 20 thread
PINION SPLINES 30.0
TRACKS - 63.4"
Quick reply to this message
  #95 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2009, 05:11 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,173
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 7
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberats
I have said this REPEATEDLY, in more than one post, I am NOT trying to REUSE the water, RECAPTURE ANYTHING for further use. I do NOT want to use THAT faulty theory, I agree with you on THIS.
You again completely fail to realize the bigger picture. YOU ARE REUSING WATER, I don't care where it came from or what you do with it after you combust it. There is a fixed amount of hydrogen and oxygen on the planet. The fact that you have 10 random gallons of it in a tank doesn't mean anything. You are taking water, converting it to fuel, then back to water out the exhaust pipe. I'm not talking about recapturing, I'm telling you that its not possible to do that without expending more energy than you get.

you are taking water from the globe, splitting it into fuel, then returning it to the globe. What makes you think that the 10 gallons in your tank are exempt from the laws of physics?

using a little bit to supplement your fuel is one thing, using strictly water is NOT POSSIBLE.

Water + energy = H + O
H + O + Ea = water + energy. Its fixed.

I'm just so shocked at your inability to grasp this.
Quick reply to this message
  #96 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2009, 05:26 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,173
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 7
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberats
1990 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
Fuel Economy (city / hwy): 17/27 mpg (14/24 mpg actual)
Rear-Wheel Drive
Transmission: 4-Speed Automatic Overdrive
Engine Specifications: 5.0L 150hp V8(4.942L 302cu.in.)
Horsepower: 150
Torque (lb-ft): 270
Valves/Valve Configuration: 2 valves/cyl.
Displacement (cc) 4950
Bore X Stroke (in.) 4.00 X 3.00
Compression Ratio 8.9:1
Fuel Type/System No data/MPFI (EFI)
Timing Setup - 10 deg. off dead center (13-14deg. specific)
GVVW - 5200lbs.
Turbocharger No
Supercharger No
R - H
S - N/A
AX - 8
Other - TGCDD

Open/Lock/Ratio #
-----------------------
G / H / 2.26
B / C / 2.47
8 / M (NL Limited Slip)/ 2.73
7 / - / 3.07
Y / Z / 3.08
4 / D / 3.42
F / R / 3.45
5 / E / 3.27
6 / W / 3.73
2 / K / 3.55
A / - / 3.63
J / - / 3.85

AXLE INFO REAR - FORD 8.8" - 28 SPLINE AXLES
AXLE POSITION REAR
PINION TYPE STANDARD
COVER BOLTS 10.0
AXLE SPLINE COUNT 28.0
RATIO TO USE LOW RATIO CASE N/A
RING GEAR DIAMETER 8.8
PINION SHAFT DIAMETER 1.63
RING GEAR BOLT QTY - SIZE 10 - 7/16in x 20 thread
PINION SPLINES 30.0
TRACKS - 63.4"
This is ridiculous. The math is so simple and I've already done this for you. The only variable is VE.

Assuming an engine that displaces exactly 5.0L, at 100% VE it ingests 2.5L per revolution. So, if its spinning at 2500 RPM (which stands for revolutions per minute) multiply 2.5L by 2500 and you get 62,500 L/min. Now apply VE (volumetric efficiency). A typical stock 5.0L engine probably operates at a peak VE of about 82% at its torque peak (probably near 2500 rpm anyway) at WOT (wide open throttle). Multiply 62,500 by 0.82 and you get 51,250 L/min. Now you can estimate part throttle on a sliding scale from zero (engine off) to 82%. Better yet, use a flow meter to determine the EXACT L/min the engine is actually using.

But, even if you estimate 10% VE at cruise, that leaves you with having to generate 6250 L/min just to sustain cruise.

Good luck with that.
Then good luck when you eject the shattered piston out of the oil pan.
Then good luck harnessing all those BTUs without overheating or melting the metal casting of the engine
Then good luck not getting the oxygen supply to literally ignite its own tubing when combustion temps leak past the intake valve.
Quick reply to this message
  #97 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2009, 05:54 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,173
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 7
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Here's some more math for you. This is from the EPA website and the CARB website.

Most of that smog you choke on is not from cars, its from industrial sources. Consider that the average ship consumes hundreds of gallons per mile and the fact that an average of about 150 ships come in and out of the southern half of california on a given day, let's do some math.

Average ship burns 132 gallons per mile or about .0076 MPG. The average car gets 15 or so MPG. It would take approximately 1974 miles of the average car to burn the same volume of fuel as one mile in a cargo ship. Now consider that ships are not emissions regulated. They put out (again by EPA estimates) about 17 times the particulate, HC, and NOx emissions of an average OBD2 car (1996 and later). It would take about 33,553 miles in an average car to emit the same amount of crap as one mile in a ship.

CARB estimates that on-road vehicles are only responsible for about 2-6% of the smog-producing emissions in southern california. A very significant portion comes from shipping, a surprising amount comes from agriculture, and the rest comes from human waste decomposition in the form of sewage and landfill emissions.

Just food for thought.

I'm out.
Quick reply to this message
  #98 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2009, 01:07 PM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,702
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Could I ask you why the air Force has all the equipment and aircraft currently running on hh2 "moontanker"....
Where do you get your info?? I was a crew chief on C-141s in the AF ...and we used JP fuel... a long way from hh2... the witch burners always come out when this topic is discussed. Ignore physics and everything is a conspiracy.
I heard I could travel through time by running my clock backwards...I just need the technology and blueprints to make a large enough clock...get real.
For the other MORON, storage is the least of your issues...
I will however be glad to do the research work if you bundle a large number of $100 bills and send them to me every week for the next decade (probably 100 will do to start).
There is an old expression..." a little information is dangerous", when it explodes into mythical porportions it is deadly.
Can't waste anymore brain cells on these TROLLS..the board seems overrun with them lately...is there any anti-Troll software I can get??
Quick reply to this message
  #99 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2009, 04:05 PM
schnitz's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: Building a new shop
Last journal entry: Christmas 2008 came early!!!
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wausau, Wisconsin, in a house...
Age: 40
Posts: 1,163
Wiki Edits: 54

Thanks: 8
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
To heck with civility, too many people are being called "morons" in this thread for it to be considered a worthwhile topic for this forum. I for one say it's well beyond usefulness and purpose, so this thread should be locked and sent on the express lane to the dump. If I wanted to see this type of kindergarten playground behavior, I'd go watch the kids at my wife's employer. I hope both sides agree....


In a while, Chet.
Quick reply to this message
  #100 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2009, 04:16 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,173
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 7
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
As I said in post #3 or 4,

Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73
Oh dear god.... some mod please close this thread before I post in it.... Oh crap its too late.
It violates the laws of the universe. Drop it.
I think it should have been closed long ago, but someone keeps bringing it up.
Quick reply to this message
  #101 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2009, 07:14 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Jax Fl
Posts: 383
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 16
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
I'm Bored so lets beat on it some more!

Why don't we just go to the source of hydrogen and burn water! Why can't we do that? It is H20 - two parts hydrogen - one part oxygen. Why wont it burn! Every time I stick a match to it the match goes out. But seriously has any one ever tried injecting water in to a highly compressed environment? What happens to water under extreme pressures? Does it break down? If so are the hydrogen and oxygen molecules released? Would it explode? More food for thought.
Quick reply to this message
  #102 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2009, 07:16 PM
poncho62's Avatar
Out of the Loop Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Streetbeasts links
Last journal entry: at car show
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hanover, Ontario, Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 16,929
Wiki Edits: 5

Thanks: 22
Thanked 284 Times in 225 Posts
OK...CLOSED........the debate has played itself out.

BTW...the name calling doesn't belong here.
__________________
Ontario Rodders

Budget RVs
Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread

Recent Hotrodders' Lounge posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Octane Booster Info SLR_65 Engine 46 09-30-2007 09:01 AM
Engine dies after letting off gas oldschoolrods Engine 6 08-09-2005 07:08 AM
why not radial engines? inspiron Hotrodders' Lounge 34 06-11-2005 10:56 AM
Carb Getting Gas But Engine not Starting zeeman19 Engine 1 07-07-2002 04:20 PM
Engine storage ? tjk2000us2000 Engine 2 06-18-2002 11:03 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.