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Cyberats 11-15-2008 01:31 AM

Hydrogen Burning Engine, no gas storage...
 
Hi

Any engineers and/or mechanics out there that can work out the base alloys, hydrolitic converter(s), pumps, filters and controllers ???
It is almost within our grasp but we desperately need good blue prints and solid designs, good construction too. The basics of the burning engine remain.
Can you imagine going to your garden hose and pumping water into your (has been) gas tank ? Wouldn't that be wonderfull ?

What do you think of this ? :mwink:
Fight the Greedy - take what they took from you - :boxing:

Jmark 11-15-2008 06:53 AM

I think overall, it's a bad idea.
It costs way more to get hydrogen TO your engine, start to finish, than you get from it.
It is difficult to store, as you are finding out.
It CANNOT be extracted from water fast enough in the storage space that a vehicle has to offer, unless you have it set up in a 40 foot semi trailer behind your car.
Can you imagine the damage it would do to our water supply if everyone started sucking water out of the ground to power their vehicles? We'd have "gas" but would die of thirst.

All this "green" crap makes me ill. Just like corn ethanol, nice idea but millions would starve to death just so we can be kind to Al Gore the idiot and jump on the 3 wheeled band wagon.

Natural gas is a win/win situation. Can be burned in it's natural state, billions of cubic feet of it ready to go, cars are somewhat easily converted and if you have gas heat or cooking at your house, all you need is a transfer station, however pricey they still are.

curtis73 11-15-2008 10:39 AM

Oh dear god.... some mod please close this thread before I post in it.... Oh crap its too late.

It takes as much or more energy to split water in to H and O as you get back when you combust it, so unless you failed chemistry (obviously) you CAN'T do it.

Putting water in your tank, asking your car to split it and then just recombine it is the equivalent of putting exhaust in your tank and converting it back to gasoline. Maybe soon we'll just be burning the smog in the air around us.

H and O in the form of water is like two magnets stuck together. If it takes 5 lbs of energy to pull them apart, you only get back 5 lbs when they recombine. That is chemical fact, evidenced by the FIRST law of thermodynamics. No amount of catalysts or free energy will make this miracle happen.

Water is NOT fuel. Water is the exhaust, therefore water cannot be fuel. If your idea were feasible, you would never need to refill the tank; just recondense your exhaust and burn it again. Congrats, you've discovered perpetual motion. You are swapping back and forth between chemical states expending great amounts of energy, yet still able to extract an infinite amount of energy from a fixed volume of water to run the engine, give off 80% of your combustion energy to the atmosphere as wasted heat, and still have enough left over to propel the car AND drive an alternator capable of splitting water. You, sir, must have been in the special chemistry class where they skipped over the law of conservation of energy.

This idea is so overplayed, so proposterous, and so ridiculous, and yet people out there claim to have found catalysts that reduce the energy required, or they want to install a windmill and solar panels on their car. Maybe they have this wonderful new product that extracts "free energy" from a crystal found buried deep beneath the himalayas.

It violates the laws of the universe. Drop it.

4 Jaw Chuck 11-15-2008 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyberats
Hi

Any engineers and/or mechanics out there that can work out the base alloys, hydrolitic converter(s), pumps, filters and controllers ???
It is almost within our grasp but we desperately need good blue prints and solid designs, good construction too.

Do your own homework! Sheesh! :rolleyes:



Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyberats
Fight the Greedy - take what they took from you - :boxing:

Alright who has been stealing gas from my backyard refinery again? Dang, I need to get a big guard dog. :spank:

Seriously...this topic has been beaten to death on this forum, do a search please. :rolleyes:

1930dodge 11-15-2008 11:20 AM

H H O
 
People have tried to sell me kits for $89.94 that run off a 40 amp fuse. These kits feed the Hydrogen /Oxygen mix (known as brown gas) through a 1/4" hose. The volume of the HHO gas flow is so tiny, it is insignificant in comparison to the amount of fuel / air mix going into the intake manifold. They may increase gas mileage at low engine speeds , but to see a significant difference, you would need a huge amount of the HHO gas, many times what the kit would be able to produce. A one liter engine will take in 1/2 liter of air/fuel mixture per revolution, hence if your engine is running at 2500 RPMs, you would need to produce upwards of 1250 liters per minute of the HHO gas per minute.

I was also told I could run my 1928 Chrysler off of the HHO produced from 2 of these kits and would never need to put gasoline in it. Ya, right 80 amps running a car at any speed. A lawnmower wouldn't run off of that.

1930dodge

moontanker 11-15-2008 12:41 PM

hh2
 
I have info on this but must find because my file system stinks.I do recall that a non magnetic stainless steel series of plates are involved.I at one time did a lot of serios research on this and know that people that have made it work have strangely,shall I say Been termanated,so to speak,I once met a man from England who had an antigravity platform and he never told anyone about it.Yes some times advancing mankind has an unpleasant side .I wish you guys luck and advise to be careful Hydrogen is a dangerous gas.

curtis73 11-15-2008 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moontanker
At 35 it appears you are a real genius.Could I ask you why the air Force has all the equipment and aircraft currently running on hh2 and why all the dead that have made this process work for over 40 years.At 35 you seem to not know that alot of physics laws are changing allmost daily and to keep up takes alot of staff.Then I must ask,Can man fly?I beleive as many must in order for man to go forward all ideas must be recognised and accepted,the only way for us to go forward.Ever seen the first computer?Auto?airplane?Lots of people argued these things would not work...............

I thought I'd reply to your private message here since there are some things that will help the thread.

First of all, the air force is using hydrogen as a fuel, NOT water. Hydrogen IS a fuel. Water isn't.

I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm a genius, but... wait, actually - yeah I would.

If you start getting into urban myths about how people died once they invented free energy, I'm going to drive to wherever you are and slap you. They argued that man couldn't fly because of religion, not physics. The main opponent to aeronautics was the Christian church. But the airplane was based on physical fact and provable science. The magic water car is contrary to the laws of physics.

Sorry, but a PhD in physics and mechanical engineering kinda trumps your fairy tale free energy.

ap72 11-15-2008 03:03 PM

What is being proposed is man creating something from nothing- which cannot be done. I for one am a huge fan of ethanol. But wonder why they would even attempt hydrogen. It was a bad idea from the get go. You have to split water to get the hydrogen gas, so you never use les energy than you consume. With ethanol your energy is an indirect product of the sun. which means we can get more energy than we use, because the sun supplies it. Just like the sun supplied the original energy that went into the formation of gasoline.

curtis73 11-15-2008 03:41 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by moontanker
I have info on this but must find because my file system stinks.I do recall that a non magnetic stainless steel series of plates are involved.I at one time did a lot of serios research on this and know that people that have made it work have strangely,shall I say Been termanated,so to speak,I once met a man from England who had an antigravity platform and he never told anyone about it.Yes some times advancing mankind has an unpleasant side .I wish you guys luck and advise to be careful Hydrogen is a dangerous gas.

So, how did you overcome the first law of physics? Do you realize that if you're correct, you have not only proven perpetual motion, but you've come up with a way to extract about 400% MORE energy out of the reaction over and above perpetual motion? Congratulations.

I made everyone a pretty picture. Look at it and stop being a tool.

The amount of energy stored in a fuel is represented by the blue box. After combustion, 20-30% of that energy makes its way to the crankshaft as work. Then successively each step down the line takes and wastes energy. At the point of exhaust, there is no real energy left. In the case of H and O and water, H is the fuel, water is the exhaust. Suggesting that your car can turn exhuast into fuel is laughable and ridiculous. That would require that this reaction not only shaves off the energy for all the losses described in the picture, but have a surplus that is equal to or greater than the height of the blue box. If you put water in your tank, turn it into fuel, you are adding immense amounts of energy, then simply recapturing a tiny percentage when you recombust it.

People always talk about catalysts and magical crystals that help the hydrolysis and reduce its energy needs. The bottom line is this, and unless you've found a way to violate the laws of physics, this is fact: Making H and O from water takes as much or more energy than you get back by combusting it. Period. There is no way around it. I don't care if you try prayer, fairy dust, or catalysts for which someone lost their life in a government conspiracy.

Anyone who successfully completed the most remedial physics or chemistry course can comprehend this. The thing that makes me laugh is that I'M the fluffy green one who believes in fairys and god. If anyone should believe this its me, but I know that it violates laws of physics and is impossible. Anyone who does believe this stuff deserves all the laughter they get.

Jmark 11-15-2008 03:44 PM

I like pretty pictures!!!

Jmark 11-15-2008 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curtis73
a PhD in physics and mechanical engineering kinda trumps your fairy tale free energy.

Wow!!! Can I be your friend???? Oh..........wait...........I think I already am! LOL


I personally like the viability of methane myself.

curtis73 11-15-2008 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmark
Wow!!! Can I be your friend???? Oh..........wait...........I think I already am! LOL

You are already my friend. For everyone else, the signup sheet is in the lobby. :)

mitchc 11-16-2008 07:24 AM

Jmark

You are correct with the CNG. We have been running CNG in our Shuttle Buses at the Airport for almost 13years. We have 35 30' shuttle buses with Cummins B5.9G, B8.3G and the new ISL 8.9.. We were averaging around $1.20 per EEG (energy equilivant gallon) when diesel was $4.90 per gallon. The engines run very clean. Not only do you get the benifit of cheap fuel but you can extend your oil change out to 10,000 because the fuel is so clean. Wow Win Win.. Wished the Gov would get on board. Oh wait.. that would mean all of the OIL Buddys would loose.. Ante Gonna Happen.. I used to be able to buy pickups, cars etc from Ford, Chevy, Dodge etc,, Try and buy one today.. The only car is the Honda Civic..

Mitch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmark
I think overall, it's a bad idea.
It costs way more to get hydrogen TO your engine, start to finish, than you get from it.
It is difficult to store, as you are finding out.
It CANNOT be extracted from water fast enough in the storage space that a vehicle has to offer, unless you have it set up in a 40 foot semi trailer behind your car.
Can you imagine the damage it would do to our water supply if everyone started sucking water out of the ground to power their vehicles? We'd have "gas" but would die of thirst.

All this "green" crap makes me ill. Just like corn ethanol, nice idea but millions would starve to death just so we can be kind to Al Gore the idiot and jump on the 3 wheeled band wagon.

Natural gas is a win/win situation. Can be burned in it's natural state, billions of cubic feet of it ready to go, cars are somewhat easily converted and if you have gas heat or cooking at your house, all you need is a transfer station, however pricey they still are.


lakeroadster 11-16-2008 07:44 AM

Interesting posts.

Have you ever seen pictures of the inlays that are on the woodwork in Congress? Oil Derricks and Tobacco leaves. People still smoke yet they know that the odds are it will kill them..... it defies logic. We will continue to drive cars using oil based fuel because of the lobbyist and backroom deals. CNG is a great idea short term but long term fossil fuels aren't the answer.

Obama has all the answers, just ask him. He will have this problem solved by the end of next May. If you could just share the wealth he might have it figured out by the end of February.

:thumbup:

ap72 11-16-2008 08:12 AM

when i was a mechanich we serviced some trucks for a local propane deliverer that ran on propane, even after 300,000 miles the exhaust manifolds were clean enough to eat off of. And with the natural gas- MODOT ran some engine oil analysis on their viehicles and the recomendation was to change oil every 25,000 miles because the worse engine in the fleet showed signs of oil degredation at 40,000. It is some clean burning crap.

I still like ethanol though, primarily because its a liquid, and liquids are easier to store and transport than gases.

Yea you can't cold start a 100% ethanol car, but we can find a way around that. Even if it means having a seperate fuel tank for straight gasoline.


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