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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2008, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piniongear
The cam looks pretty good. The bearings are not worn to the copper like all of the mains and rods.
The lobes look good too, although I am far from an expert. They show some signs of wear.....like I cannot say this is a new cam because you see wear or tracks on the lobes.
There is one lifter that I could not get out however until I removed the cam.
This is also from my old friend cylinder #5.
The bottom of the lifter is concave. Very concave. All the rest of the lifters came out easily and are dead flat across their bottoms.
I don't know if the concave will show, but I will take a photo of it and stick to this post..... (It shows)
The bad lifter base is really fished tailed out. The spread is so great that it would not come out of the block topside. The edge is sharp like a razor. The other lifters by comparasion, have a nice smooth beveled edge to them....pg
These pictures are photos of the kiss-of-death for the lifters and cam.

Questions to be asked are:

- is this damge from eating scraps of bearing material from the crank?

- is this the failure that took out the crank bearings?

- are these two seperate and unrelated failures?

I can't answer any of that, but at this point I'd seriously be considering scrapping the old motor and replacing it completely.

Bogie

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2008, 06:07 PM
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Every concave lifter face I have ever seen, the cam lobe it was riding on has been worn down. I suggest you take a good lifter, and put it in that bad "lifter" bore in the block, and check for a loose fit. Compare the feel to the other lifter bores in the block. I doubt it was too tight from the outside finish on it.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2008, 07:01 PM
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Dam sorry to hear it.

I wonder which one started first or were they at the same time or what really happened only u know what happened as u were the 1 driving it. Not trying to be an *** but when my rod bearing went on my 454 it was one of those things that I felt when it started and knew what it sound felt and smelt like need all the conditions to determine what went first. Sorry again to here.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 07:32 AM
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Your problem started when the metal from the cam and lifters started circulating through your engine by going through the oil filter by-pass.

tom
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machine shop tom
Your problem started when the metal from the cam and lifters started circulating through your engine by going through the oil filter by-pass.

tom
Tom thats why I preach plugging the bypass and usign a good filter!!!!!!!
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
Tom thats why I preach plugging the bypass and usign a good filter!!!!!!!

Meeee toooooo!

tom
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 12:49 PM
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Do you have a picture of the #5 cam lobe for us too! LOL

The lifter in question is basically still intact, a little bloomed out, but not shaving off yet. Don't know if it could release enough metal to cause all that damage unless the cam lobe is near gone.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 12:51 PM
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CNC Blocks & Machine Shop Tom......

Quote:
Originally Posted by machine shop tom
Meeee toooooo!

tom
Well guys, all I can say is this:
One lifter out of the 16 had damage. The other 15 are flat bottomed and unmarked.
All lifters slid smoothly in their respective bores.

You are saying the metal from this one lifter (the cam shows no damage just looking at it) did all that damage? I think that is a bit of a stretch myself. There was absolutely no metal grains anywhere inside the engine when I pulled it down.

As for the oil and filter business, I change the oil every 3000 miles and put a new filter on at the same time. Let's see, I have done 5 oil changes in the 15000 miles on the engine and it was ready for the 6th,
The pan drain plug has a magnet on it and it has never had any steel attached to it. Yeah, I know, a magnet does not attract copper and other bearing material. But whatever material that came off the lifter and cam, is called steel.

I think there is another cause for this early failure and I also believe it has to do with the person who built this engine.
I will take it to an automotive machine shop tomorrow and have an expert look at it. I am curious to see what he has to say (if anything) about what may have caused the failure.........pg
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piniongear
Well guys, all I can say is this:
One lifter out of the 16 had damage. The other 15 are flat bottomed and unmarked.
All lifters slid smoothly in their respective bores.

You are saying the metal from this one lifter (the cam shows no damage just looking at it) did all that damage? I think that is a bit of a stretch myself. There was absolutely no metal grains anywhere inside the engine when I pulled it down.

As for the oil and filter business, I change the oil every 3000 miles and put a new filter on at the same time. Let's see, I have done 5 oil changes in the 15000 miles on the engine and it was ready for the 6th,
The pan drain plug has a magnet on it and it has never had any steel attached to it. Yeah, I know, a magnet does not attract copper and other bearing material. But whatever material that came off the lifter and cam, is called steel.

I think there is another cause for this early failure and I also believe it has to do with the person who built this engine.
I will take it to an automotive machine shop tomorrow and have an expert look at it. I am curious to see what he has to say (if anything) about what may have caused the failure.........pg
It looks like debris came from some where and if they reused a stock oil pan they are impossible to get them clean with the tray in them. We hardly build any stock type engines but the performance ones we build for our circle track customers you could put the old bearings back in if needed.. even after 2 or 3 years of running.


There again if the pan was not new and the filter bypass was not plugged bearings will look like this.

Beleive me we have seen engines over the years that the bearings looked worse then that and the cam was not wiped out. At least on street engines plug the bypass for at least the first 6000 miles, The street performance engiene we have built are all plugged and no issues so far.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmark
Do you have a picture of the #5 cam lobe for us too! LOL

The lifter in question is basically still intact, a little bloomed out, but not shaving off yet. Don't know if it could release enough metal to cause all that damage unless the cam lobe is near gone.
That is exactly my thought on the subject too. The lobes show some tracking marks, no pitting (although my close up photos may seem to suggest such) but the lobes are full height and full shape.

Now remember what you are looking at here....a cam lobe greatly magnified. So the surface is better in real life view.
The first pic is the lobe for the bad tappet. The one with the Tig welding rod pointing to it.
The second pic is the backside of that same lobe.
The third pic is the #5 cam lobe that sits next to the bad tappet lobe.......pg
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
It looks like debris came from some where and if they reused a stock oil pan
There again if the pan was not new and the filter bypass was not plugged bearings will look like this.
.
Nope. Brand new chrome oil pan (stamped inside on the baffle plate...Made in Taiwan....Heh-Heh)...........pg
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:43 PM
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I really don't see any excessive shaving or wear on any of the lobes, atleast not enough to cause an engine grind-down! LOL I think you just had some dork that forgot to resize the rods after filing them down and maybe the mains too. Overall, a real crappy machining job.

I should be headed over to that side of town by Monday to pick up wood for my next kitchen. I'll make sure to take some pics along to show the pinhead.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:48 PM
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This is for Tom and Carl.

What happens when you start grinding down an engine with a blocked bypass valve? Does the filter just plug solid and eventually blow up? If the filter plugged solid, wouldn't the pump just begin bypassing too, but still showing high oil pressure?
Just trying to figure out the benefit of plugging the bypass, other than keeping crap from getting into the engine. Seems that if you are having an engine failure, you either pass the crap throughout the engine, or plug the filter and starve the engine and melt it down. Kind of a crap shoot? LOL

Mark
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmark
This is for Tom and Carl.

What happens when you start grinding down an engine with a blocked bypass valve? Does the filter just plug solid and eventually blow up? If the filter plugged solid, wouldn't the pump just begin bypassing too, but still showing high oil pressure?
Just trying to figure out the benefit of plugging the bypass, other than keeping crap from getting into the engine. Seems that if you are having an engine failure, you either pass the crap throughout the engine, or plug the filter and starve the engine and melt it down. Kind of a crap shoot? LOL

Mark
Been plugging the bypasses for over 30 years now and have never pluged a filter if there is that much debris plugging a filter its probably going to blow up before the filter ever gets plugged.

We had a customer years ago tear up 4 dist. gears at the track and at the end of the year when we tore it down no a mark on the bearings.

Running cheap filters and heavy oil and a bypass it will push debris through the engines as we have seen that issue to many times over the years.

We have built enough engines over the years and its not a crap shoot.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2008, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmark
This is for Tom and Carl.

What happens when you start grinding down an engine with a blocked bypass valve? Does the filter just plug solid and eventually blow up? If the filter plugged solid, wouldn't the pump just begin bypassing too, but still showing high oil pressure?
Just trying to figure out the benefit of plugging the bypass, other than keeping crap from getting into the engine. Seems that if you are having an engine failure, you either pass the crap throughout the engine, or plug the filter and starve the engine and melt it down. Kind of a crap shoot? LOL

Mark
It takes an awful lot to plug a filter. You'd know long before that that there is a serious problem. I see way too many engines with serious damage that would have been otherwise limited by using a plugged by-pass. It's also very important to use a magnetic drain plug 'cause that will give the first warning of cam or other ferrous-based metal damage.

I do not recommend plugging the by-pass on stock, daily-driven vehicles that are used in cold weather.

If the original poster would cut open his oil filter and run a magnet through the pleats, he may gain some insight as to what went through the engine.

tom
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