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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2007, 08:38 PM
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Have you tried one of the sockets that have small round rods so that it is adjustable to different sized and shaped nuts. I have had success loosing nuts that have been rounded off. I don't know what they are called.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2007, 09:14 PM
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Even if you do find a socket to grab that nut, (the spline drive sounds like the best bet to me), you'll still need to un-deform the pinched off top. I'll bet that you will tear up the threads all the way along the shaft if you just try to undo it without un pinching it off of those flats.

And I'd try using a impact driver,(not a pneumatic one, an old school hammer type, like you find at the motorcycle shop),it'll push down on the serrations better.

Actually, If it were me, and I was setting up for production, and wanted to be sure that each nut was removed with consistant results....
I'd set it up in a dedicated fixture on the mill, then plunge mill off one side of the nut close to the flat on the shaft with a 1/4" end mill. I'd modify a socket by creating a spud on it's rim to fit the milled slot.
The first turn will spread the nut and it'll spin easy from there on out, without destroying the shaft.

Later, mikey
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2007, 01:12 PM
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So what are the different types of sockets i should try, i heard a few different types mentioned. I am probably going to have to order so if someone could also name a supplier that would be great.

In case it matters, this nut is likely metric
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2007, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
Even if you do find a socket to grab that nut, (the spline drive sounds like the best bet to me), you'll still need to un-deform the pinched off top. I'll bet that you will tear up the threads all the way along the shaft if you just try to undo it without un pinching it off of those flats.

And I'd try using a impact driver,(not a pneumatic one, an old school hammer type, like you find at the motorcycle shop),it'll push down on the serrations better.

Actually, If it were me, and I was setting up for production, and wanted to be sure that each nut was removed with consistant results....
I'd set it up in a dedicated fixture on the mill, then plunge mill off one side of the nut close to the flat on the shaft with a 1/4" end mill. I'd modify a socket by creating a spud on it's rim to fit the milled slot.
The first turn will spread the nut and it'll spin easy from there on out, without destroying the shaft.

Later, mikey
Sheer genius.

I have used a dremel with a tungsten bit. Too much torque with a die grinder if it catches. Maybe dremels need more torque as I'm on my third or fourth one. Anyway, work on the flat sides, make a cut and stop JUST BEFORE the threads, if any. There may be some down lower.???? Snap it apart with a chisel. This will take some patience, I just pull up a chair and settle in.

This is the cheap man's way but Mikey's plunge mill idea is perfect for any production work. If this initial one you're working on is successful, then I would start looking for a quicker way.

Maybe you can pay Mikey to design one for you....
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2007, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedydude
Maybe you can pay Mikey to design one for you....
Thanks for the compliment.

Believe it or not, people do actually pay me to do that sort of thing, I worked in several different production oriented industries, and like sorting out problems with jigs and fixturing, assembly procedures and getting consistant results from production operations. I was even in the Society of Manufacturing Engineers for a spell.

I'd help riot racing out for free with his project here on the board.

I think that this type of socket is the way to go if you aren't going to do the big production numbers that a dedicated fixture and all that will need to be worthwhile. If you start doing 50 or more per batch, let me know.

I think that is the same as was suggested by steveU and njbloodline



http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...0070515x00001a


Later, mikey
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2007, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
Thanks for the compliment.

Believe it or not, people do actually pay me to do that sort of thing, I worked in several different production oriented industries, and like sorting out problems with jigs and fixturing, assembly procedures and getting consistant results from production operations. I was even in the Society of Manufacturing Engineers for a spell.

I'd help riot racing out for free with his project here on the board.

I think that this type of socket is the way to go if you aren't going to do the big production numbers that a dedicated fixture and all that will need to be worthwhile. If you start doing 50 or more per batch, let me know.

I think that is the same as was suggested by steveU and njbloodline



http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...0070515x00001a

Later, mikey
well i am going to try and find an individual socket so that i can give this a try

What type of fixturing could be used? Would the fixture be used for chiselling and breaking the nut off?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2007, 12:06 AM
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how would a bolt out socket work on this nut?


what about those sockets that they use to sell on the infomercials? they have a bunch of pins inside a round socket. Do you think the pins would grabb the steps in the top of the nut?

I am pretty sure the nut is not on there too tight, i know there is a drop of thread lock but i would say 20ft lbs would take it off. I could be wrong though...

Last edited by Riot Racing; 09-05-2007 at 12:24 AM.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2007, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Racing
how would a bolt out socket work on this nut?
First of all, you will still need to somhow undo or defeat the deformation at the top of the nut. The purpose of that pinched crown is to positivly lock the nut on. Once you do that, there is a possibility that the "bolt out" socket's reverse helical splines would be able to grab the flange of the nut.I'm having my doubts about it really woring though, as the flange is really thin and the bolt out socket needs a nut of some height to work.

Quote:

what about those sockets that they use to sell on the infomercials? they have a bunch of pins inside a round socket. Do you think the pins would grabb the steps in the top of the nut?
I'd bet the pins in that type of socketwill ride up those ramps and won't budge that nut one bit.

Quote:

I am pretty sure the nut is not on there too tight, i know there is a drop of thread lock but i would say 20ft lbs would take it off. I could be wrong though...
Typically they don't deform the threads AND use a drop of loctite. But still, that deformation is the biggest obstacle to getting the nut off.
That nut , as was stated by several others on this thread is a tamper proof nut, and cutting it off is still the only sure way to do the job consistantly.

How many of these units are you doing?

You said you are boring them out, what are you using to bore them with?

The same machine that you use to bore the throat out could probably be used to mill off the side of that nut. A good drill press could probably do it, if your fixture was rigid enough.

Later, mikey
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2007, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Racing

What type of fixturing could be used? Would the fixture be used for chiselling and breaking the nut off?
The fixture would be designed to grab one of the components that is held on by the nuts you are trying to take off. Probably the aluminum cylinder, as it is round and the fixture can be easily made to accomodate a round shape. Hopefully it isn't some kind of encoder (position sensor), and it can be clamped to.
Then, please go back and re-read the post that describes the method I proposed. I said nothing about chisels being used with a fixture.

later, mikey
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2007, 08:08 AM
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I think about this time I would be giving up one of those for education purpose and get my dremel out and whack that nut off..once it is off then you can see better just what needs to be done in the future...

Has anyone given any thought as to just how to put it back together???? That may be the real question..

Sam
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2007, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneMoreTime
I think about this time I would be giving up one of those for education purpose and get my dremel out and whack that nut off..once it is off then you can see better just what needs to be done in the future...

Has anyone given any thought as to just how to put it back together???? That may be the real question..

Sam
If riot racing is really going to do these in a production fashion as he said, it will only cost pennys each to have a screw machine shop make up a custom nut if needed.
He will need to order 2 or 3 thousand of them, but that's part of the cost of doing business, and that cost will be returned to him many times over if he gets his production ops designed correctly, and can make a profit on those parts.


If a guy was only doing onesies twosies, then the dremel tool or a die grinder is most certainly the way to go.

I would think that the REAL question is,....if there is another company making those units, that is established already, how is Riot Racing going to edge out that competion and sell those modified units on the open market.



Later, mikey
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Last edited by powerrodsmike; 09-05-2007 at 08:50 AM.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2007, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
If riot racing is really going to do these in a production fashion as he said, it will only cost pennys each to have a screw machine shop make up a custom nut if needed. He will need to order 2 or 3 thousand of them, but that's part of the cost of doing business, and that cost will be returned to him many times over if he gets his production ops designed correctly, and can make a profit on those parts.
Therre are quite a few places that will do small runs. Anywhere from 10 on up. There are a lot of Toolmakers and machinist out there that is out of work and have set up shop out of there homes. A couple of places that comes to mind is RFQ.com and CNCzone.com. I am interested though to see what the nut is called, and what type of tool is supposed to be used on it. I have looked through all kinds of sites and catalogs and have not seen anything like it. What is the nut currently on now? By that I mean the brand of car and if it is an idler pulley, alternator pulley, etc?
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2007, 04:17 PM
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If the nut is sufficiently thick enough you could cut 2 flats on opposite sides and use an open end wrench to remove it. I've done this many times when a nut has been rusted a lot. If you slice close enough to the shaft the nut will break apart at the weakened area.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2007, 11:43 PM
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I found a cheaper set of BOLT out sockets that i am going to try.

Lets not worry about how i am going to be competitive with another company already boring these units out.
We truely engineer our products as to where the competition simply machines them the easiest way. Also they have a much larger overhead they we do.
And we do onesiees and twosiess.

i think it difficult to describe the situation with this nut and the photos are not doing justice. The nut is not really deformed it just has flat sides towards the top of it. a flat head screw driver or chisels could easily change that.
Gripping the nut is still the challenge.

I was thinking that a small pipe wrench which is made to grab round pipes may work.
I just need a small area to grab to get this nut off
The aluminum piece can't be grabbed or mishandled.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2007, 07:41 AM
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For a plier type tool I highly recommend Knipex cobras. Had a bleeder screw that I couldn't get out & even after chucking it up in a vise & heating it up with a propane torch the visegrips wouldn't remove. Used the Knipex & it came out. This was on a 95 Dodge that spent its entire life in the snow & salt of Mich including several years in the UP where it snows most of the year.
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