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I'm calling bs.....

6K views 41 replies 10 participants last post by  BogiesAnnex1 
#1 · (Edited)
Okay so I consider myself still a newbie when it comes to the hotrodding world we all love so I am coming to you for input. My buddy has a foxbody that he road races and is looking for more power. His dad told him that he can get a 331ci $700 eagle rotating assembly and put it in a "boss" 302 block with some certain head and it will make 450hp (which I could understand) but he then said and spin it 9-10k rpm all day long with no problems.... I feel as though this is..... well seems like rather out of reach assuming its probably a cast crank with steel i beam rods and hypereutectic pistons but hey I could be wrong... it has happened before and im sure its not the last. Can someone with more experience as me chime in on this? I just wanna know how far off the road I am or am not.
 
#2 ·
Heard that before.

Its bench racing with a beer in hand.

Ever see a racing 350 block torn down after a season of shifting at 8k?

This guy must have the magic formula.

A NA hot engine will make .85 hp per inch, really hot 1-1.2 hp. Go bigger and longevity shortens.
 
#5 ·
really? 1.2hp/ci? Its interesting that there is a multitude of engines that come with more than that from the factory and a 100,000 mile warranty...

In 1970 that was probably pretty accurate. 40 years later... not so much.



As for the original post- not a snow ball's chance in hell of that working. You also wouldn't want to spin it that high for only 450hp. You could easily set your redline at 7,000 with a well thought out combo and make that power.
 
#7 ·
FWIW, we used to run 2-barrel Cleveland heads on road racing cars in prehistoric times. I did a 3.5 stroke engine in a 351W block that made about 600hp, this was in about 1988. I would not build one then or now that was not a dry sump.
If you want some trick Ford heads, talk to Kaase.
 
#10 ·
9,000 rpm takes some very good valve train components,

Back in high school I ran my 283 up to 7500 rpm daily and it never scattered.It should have come apart a 100 times in the time I owned it.It even had stamped rockers. A 289 would do the same Im sure.
when I built my first solid lifter 350 in the late 70s I ran that thing to 7,500 rpm regularly,it was balanced and did have roller rockers.It also had those lousey sig erson aluminum retainers.I was lucky I never had a valve pull through.
 
#13 ·
A flat? cam , point contacts, 5qts of oil, stock springs, does not scream 7500 rpm to me. More like 4500rpm. Wouldnt last at 7500 if you could get there tuning for max power.

Ever take a old recycle yard car, put it in 1st and drive it wot till it dies?

Ever throw a handfull of change, roofing nails, and ball bearings down the intake?

Ever drain oil and coolant and run the engine, just for fun? Take the Prolong challenge?

The domestic V8 is tough bastard of an engine, but not that good.
 
#14 ·
top,its good that you are amazed.My 65 Acadian used the z-28 points until I bought a mallory dual point.I still have a set of those points in my tool box.The 67 Camaro also used a mallory dual point.This was the mid seventies. The Camaro ran 11,90s at 114 mph with a glide and 5.57 gears.It was street driven.Ran 12.20s with the flat tappet solid cam and I bought a used solid roller from a super stock racer.The roller was 2/10s faster,no other change. Powerglide car after many muncies broke.
 
#27 · (Edited)
In 1973 my 38 plymouth 1684 Lbs. 283 cubic inch, 485 HP, Rev Pole 4 lobe dual point, 14/1 Jahns pistons fly cut, ported and polished power pack injector 63 cc heads, shim gaskets, sodium exhaust valves, 525 lb. valve springs, 283 girdled 2 bolt main, steel crank lightened and balanced chromed journals (polished on all surfaces), shot peened rods( all surfaces polished), steel custom rockers girdled screw in studs, G.K. solid flat tappet cam 660 lift and over 312 duration installed retarded 8 degrees, ford drilled lifters, tunnel ram, 2 950 Holleys ,Wet sump home made 10 Qt pan with wind-age tray trapdoor and scrappers , 4 speed hydro, 588 gears, and many more tricks! could rev. over 9000 rpm but the valve train would have to be just about replaced every week to get ready for the next runs! I don't see why you cant do it to a 302 ford! The 289 Windsors could, some could out rev my 283!

Its the durability that is the question? A high revving engine isn't built for durability!! You dont want an engine you have to rebuild every 5 hrs of run time on it!! Which most drag racers do! I build destroked engines and don't recommend Eagle cranks unless your desperate to save money!


Heres a 276 cu inch small block!





The Jenkin video was the wrong one LOL
 
#28 ·
The Old Reliable:

Keystone Nationals, Maple Grove, PA.
TECHNICAL DATA
VIN number 124378N411100
Build Date 04A (first week of April)
Color Corvette Bronze
Interior Code 712, black standard
Car Shipper Shipped on April 11, 1968 to Ammon R. Smith Auto Company, York, PA
Engine Data Cubic Inches, 302
Cylinder heads #3917291, completely stock, no porting allowed!
Stock rocker arms & valve springs
Intake 302 aluminum intake, casting #3917610
Carburetor Holley, #4053, 780 CFM 4bbl
Camshaft Crane, .480 inches lift, 272 degrees duration, valve lash, .016-.016
Pistons GM 302, .030" oversize
Horsepower 456 @7700rpm
Rear Tires 9" x 30.0" Hoosier's
Rear axle & ratio 12-bolt, 5.57 Richmond Pro Gears
Clutch 10 inch, three finger from Advance Clutch Technology
Shift Points 8200 RPM
BEST ET 10.80 @122.30mph

Jester
 
#35 ·
the honda 2000 made 240 horse power on its debut. thats about 1.6 hp per cube,N.A. and the newer ones make more power.The M3 BMW makes a lot. The 283 fuelie made 1.1 h p per cube back in 1962.

all those engines revved to 7k or more.
When you pass 8k rpm harmonics cause problems but dont stop the engines from revving.A short stroke engine will rev 7k with out a doubt.
 
#42 ·
You are right! It takes a lot of rocket science by the time an engine starts getting into the mid 6000 RPM catagory. This just goes crazy about 7000 RPM and CRAIZER above that point.

Structural strength of the block, crankshaft, rods and pistons becomes a huge issue not so much from the 450 hp thought that drives you to a lot of stuff made from 4340 steel like the crank and rods, high quality forged pistons with lightened tool steel floating pins, internal balance, very expensive dampers like the Rattler or Fluid Damper (cannot use the latter on NASCAR tracks because of imbalance issues after hot soaking). This would take ported aftermarket heads to feed the CFM requirements with a pretty exotic valve train to track the cam at those RPMs. Basically from 7000 RPM up you've got to dry sump the engine as the windage gets to be such a power limiter, you've got to put the crankcase under a continious vacuum and you've got to remove the oil that isn't in the galleys. Removal gives the oil time to rest and degass inside the crankcase it gets mixed with the air and gasses in there which actally makes a stiff brown mousse that is several times more viscus than the pure oil, this will cavitate in the pump and within the bearing clearances quickly destroying both pump and bearings followed by a massive engine failure as the bottom end comes out. All 4-bolt mains and crank girdles are not only necessay to keep the bottom end ridged enough that wandering dimension changes won't cause enough distortion to blow the engine, but another unadvertised purpose they serve is to bust up the rotating assembly is a failure does happen to soak up some of the energy to where the crank assembly isn't sailing about the track till its energy is used up. So dry sumping is used to extra capacity with storage away from the rotating mass to give the oil time to vent off before going back into the engine among other things.

So yes you can build a cheap high RPM engine by just buying a radical cam, stuff springs and some top end and exhaust goodies, but without the rocket science everywhere else it won't be together for long.

Bogie
 
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