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Old 10-22-2012, 04:03 PM
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I'm calling bs.....

Okay so I consider myself still a newbie when it comes to the hotrodding world we all love so I am coming to you for input. My buddy has a foxbody that he road races and is looking for more power. His dad told him that he can get a 331ci $700 eagle rotating assembly and put it in a "boss" 302 block with some certain head and it will make 450hp (which I could understand) but he then said and spin it 9-10k rpm all day long with no problems.... I feel as though this is..... well seems like rather out of reach assuming its probably a cast crank with steel i beam rods and hypereutectic pistons but hey I could be wrong... it has happened before and im sure its not the last. Can someone with more experience as me chime in on this? I just wanna know how far off the road I am or am not.

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Old 10-22-2012, 04:16 PM
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Heard that before.

Its bench racing with a beer in hand.

Ever see a racing 350 block torn down after a season of shifting at 8k?

This guy must have the magic formula.

A NA hot engine will make .85 hp per inch, really hot 1-1.2 hp. Go bigger and longevity shortens.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:20 PM
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nascar spends tens of thousands for a valvetrain that go to 8500-9400
a ford 302 isn't going to 8000rpm with big money on the valvetrain..

even the overhead cam mod motor won't do it with tons of $$$$$$$
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:20 PM
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Sounds like wishful thinking.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:27 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinn View Post
Heard that before.

Its bench racing with a beer in hand.

Ever see a racing 350 block torn down after a season of shifting at 8k?

This guy must have the magic formula.

A NA hot engine will make .85 hp per inch, really hot 1-1.2 hp. Go bigger and longevity shortens.
really? 1.2hp/ci? Its interesting that there is a multitude of engines that come with more than that from the factory and a 100,000 mile warranty...

In 1970 that was probably pretty accurate. 40 years later... not so much.



As for the original post- not a snow ball's chance in hell of that working. You also wouldn't want to spin it that high for only 450hp. You could easily set your redline at 7,000 with a well thought out combo and make that power.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:02 PM
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Older ford and chevy engine have bad windage issues and pump a lot of air around with the back sides of the pistons as well. This is why nascar engines use vacum pumps and windage/scrappers to reach these rpms.

After that you can reach 8 k with power then you will need to solve the issue of valve size. Its too small on a 302 to reach anywhere near that rpm. It will choke even with good heads.

Ford does have some type of high port heads but they are $$$ and race only. Also worthless for road racing.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zildjian4life218 View Post
Okay so I consider myself still a newbie when it comes to the hotrodding world we all love so I am coming to you for input. My buddy has a foxbody that he road races and is looking for more power. His dad told him that he can get a 331ci $700 eagle rotating assembly and put it in a "boss" 302 block with some certain head and it will make 450hp (which I could understand) but he then said and spin it 9-10k rpm all day long with no problems.... I feel as though this is..... well seems like rather out of reach assuming its probably a cast crank with steel i beam rods and hypereutectic pistons but hey I could be wrong... it has happened before and im sure its not the last. Can someone with more experience as me chime in on this? I just wanna know how far off the road I am or am not.
Yepper.Only the Rochester Street Rodders club on a cruise night setting in their folding chairs.

Amazing. You can actually get a Eagle rotating assembly to turn over after bolting it in??. LOL
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:47 PM
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FWIW, we used to run 2-barrel Cleveland heads on road racing cars in prehistoric times. I did a 3.5 stroke engine in a 351W block that made about 600hp, this was in about 1988. I would not build one then or now that was not a dry sump.
If you want some trick Ford heads, talk to Kaase.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
really? 1.2hp/ci? Its interesting that there is a multitude of engines that come with more than that from the factory and a 100,000 mile warranty...

In 1970 that was probably pretty accurate. 40 years later... not so much.



As for the original post- not a snow ball's chance in hell of that working. You also wouldn't want to spin it that high for only 450hp. You could easily set your redline at 7,000 with a well thought out combo and make that power.
Edelbrock makes a 350 making 300 and rpm version doing 420hp. GM zz4 350 makes 355hp a zz383 425hp. Ford makes a 302 that makes 340hp. Mopar makes a 360 in two levels 300hp and 380hp.

Yeah, 1.2hp is the limit for reliability and roadworthy dependability.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:21 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinn View Post
Edelbrock makes a 350 making 300 and rpm version doing 420hp. GM zz4 350 makes 355hp a zz383 425hp. Ford makes a 302 that makes 340hp. Mopar makes a 360 in two levels 300hp and 380hp.

Yeah, 1.2hp is the limit for reliability and roadworthy dependability.
I don't think anyone would put either Edelbrock or GM at the pinnacle of performance...They're not dead last but pretty close to it in that regard. There are a LOT of 350ci crate engines out there that put out over 425hp.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:37 PM
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9,000 rpm takes some very good valve train components,

Back in high school I ran my 283 up to 7500 rpm daily and it never scattered.It should have come apart a 100 times in the time I owned it.It even had stamped rockers. A 289 would do the same Im sure.
when I built my first solid lifter 350 in the late 70s I ran that thing to 7,500 rpm regularly,it was balanced and did have roller rockers.It also had those lousey sig erson aluminum retainers.I was lucky I never had a valve pull through.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:43 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
9,000 rpm takes some very good valve train components,

Back in high school I ran my 283 up to 7500 rpm daily and it never scattered.It should have come apart a 100 times in the time I owned it.It even had stamped rockers. A 289 would do the same Im sure.
when I built my first solid lifter 350 in the late 70s I ran that thing to 7,500 rpm regularly,it was balanced and did have roller rockers.It also had those lousey sig erson aluminum retainers.I was lucky I never had a valve pull through.
It probably also had a cam with a lobe so lazy it'd fall asleep before it got to peak lift. That has a LOT to do with it.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:46 PM
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Wow!!!
The engine builders on here never cease to amaze me!!
With a wet sump and 5 quarts of oil....All day long....7500 rpm....!
Stock valve springs and rockers on a flat cam!!
Point distributor!
Just too much!
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by topwrench View Post
Wow!!!
The engine builders on here never cease to amaze me!!
With a wet sump and 5 quarts of oil....All day long....7500 rpm....!
Stock valve springs and rockers on a flat cam!!
Point distributor!
Just too much!
A flat? cam , point contacts, 5qts of oil, stock springs, does not scream 7500 rpm to me. More like 4500rpm. Wouldnt last at 7500 if you could get there tuning for max power.

Ever take a old recycle yard car, put it in 1st and drive it wot till it dies?

Ever throw a handfull of change, roofing nails, and ball bearings down the intake?

Ever drain oil and coolant and run the engine, just for fun? Take the Prolong challenge?

The domestic V8 is tough bastard of an engine, but not that good.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:15 PM
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top,its good that you are amazed.My 65 Acadian used the z-28 points until I bought a mallory dual point.I still have a set of those points in my tool box.The 67 Camaro also used a mallory dual point.This was the mid seventies. The Camaro ran 11,90s at 114 mph with a glide and 5.57 gears.It was street driven.Ran 12.20s with the flat tappet solid cam and I bought a used solid roller from a super stock racer.The roller was 2/10s faster,no other change. Powerglide car after many muncies broke.
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