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Old 07-10-2011, 04:37 PM
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Ingersoll rand Air compressor

I just purchased a new Ingersoll Rand 5hp 80gal 175psi duel stage compressor.
I have need to use it at 90psi all day long. This compressor only has a range control, in other words I can only set the cut in and the cut out is 40 psi higher. So I set it to 100 psi and it cuts off at 140 psi. I get about 14 minuets between cycles. It takes about 1.5 minuets to cut off. I would like to expand the upper cut out to 160 psi or so. Since there is no adjustment is it possible to change out the control with a cut in cut out one? Where can I buy one? or possibly manually adjusting the spring or putting in a stronger one?

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Old 07-10-2011, 05:22 PM
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For what Earthly reason do you want to change it? It most CERTAINLY WILL NOT increase the performance to give you longer run time, it simply does not work that way. If you are running out of air and can not maintain 90 PSI at your rate of usage then the compressor is too small and there is NOTHING you can adjust to change that, short of replacing both the motor and the pump the CFM is what it is and can not be increased. The cut in/out settings from the factory are optimal for the pump/motor combo and any changes either way would be detrimental to performance, you would lose some efficiency by dropping the settings and by increasing them about all you would accomplish would be an overheated pump and quite likely a burned out motor since those IRs already have a reputation for motor problems. When I was still in the business one of the most common "repairs" I did was to re-set the pressure regulator after the owner had messed up the settings in an effort to increase performance, properly re-setting a pressure regulator for top performance as it comes from the factory is not as simple as it seems (not too bad on an electric compressor but a royal PITA on a gas model!).
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:41 PM
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So what you are saying is that its better to run the compressor from 135psi to 175psi than 100psi to 140psi when you only need 90psi of air.

Right now I get 14 minuets of air for 1.5 minuets of run time at 100 to 140psi. That's about 4.5 starts of the motor a hour.

I would think running 100 to 160 psi I would get 20-25 minuets of air for 2.5 to 3 minuets of run time. I would think motor starts 2.5 minuets run time 3 times a hour would be easier on the motor than 1.5 minuets and 4.5 starts per hour.

I thought most motor wear was starting and stopping. That's why the manual states more more than 6 starts per hour. My last compressor was an IR 60 gal 125 psi 5hp single stage and lasted 25 years before the rings started to blow by this week.
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrylwill
So what you are saying is that its better to run the compressor from 135psi to 175psi than 100psi to 140psi when you only need 90psi of air..


Actually there would be a slight decrease in performance by dropping to the 100/140 PSI settings and if that is not a problem for you then your compressor will not wear as fast if that is your concern. I thought you were trying to increase performance which is the usual reason for changing settings on a compressor but after re-reading your first post I think I see what I missed. A two stage compressor is much more efficient than a single stage and thus can run at higher pressures storing more air in the tank for about the same amount of expended energy, efficiency starts to fall off around 175 PSI on most piston designs. If you reset the cut-in/out settings to about what you would have with a single stage pump you would lose some of the advantages of the two stage but would lessen the load on the pump and motor, mostly on the motor. A lot, most actually, of the efficiency can be recovered at these lower pressure settings by increasing the pump speed with a pulley change but this speed increase can ONLY be done at lower max pressure settings and it will still lose some efficiency. Basically the idea is to have the motor reach it's normal (not it's max!) peak AMP draw at cut-out pressure but by setting a lower pressure without changing anything else the motor will shut off before reaching it's peak performance. Recalibrating a lower setting and still maintaining decent performance can sometimes be desirable but it can be quite involved if done right. It requires the AMP draw on the motor be monitored when changing pulley drive ratios so that the AMP draw is at peak efficiency at cut out pressure, simply dropping max pressure without changing anything else will result in a serious loss of performance. Unless you are willing to get into some serious pump/motor ratio changes and matching them to the motor performance range I would strongly suggest you just leave the settings as they came from the factory because they will have them set to the maximum CFM practical, they do this simply because higher CFM sells compressors and they want the highest numbers they can get. Also, and a VERY important consideration, is that changing the settings by messing around with that regulator will void your warranty!
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:11 PM
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So if I run the PSI back up to 175 it would be more efficient? Doesn't it tax the pump and motor more to pump 175 psi instead of 140psi. Would you think it would have to run longer to go from 135 to 175 than to pump from 100 to 140?

I will run it back up tomorrow to 175psi and see how long it provides 90psi air and how long it runs to get back up. Another Idea I had was to get the old tank checked out and hook it up downstream after the regulator at 90psi that would give me 140 gals at 90psi, it should increase my air time by 2/3
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:46 PM
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You ARE running a regulator, right?

For all intents and purposes, the higher the pressure in the tank, the more air in the tank, therefore, more run time.
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyK81
You ARE running a regulator, right?

For all intents and purposes, the higher the pressure in the tank, the more air in the tank, therefore, more run time.
yes 90 psi on the output of the tank.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:08 PM
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You have me puzzled here, what is it you want to accomplish? Are you trying to increase performance or decrease wear and tear on the compressor? Certainly if you set the shutoff pressure down to 140 PSI the time to recharge will be shorter although the RATE of recharge will remain exactly the same, that is the time to reach the lower setting will remain unchanged and the shorter recharge time is simply less air being pumped into the tank. Due to less air (stored energy actually) being stored in the tank your run time will be reduced by a proportional amount and doing that is doing just the opposite of attempting to gain performance by using a larger tank, which does not work either. If you are concerned more with reducing the load on the compressor and don't mind a small degree of efficiency loss then you are on the right track and in some cases this can be a good idea. The problem is you can't just simply drop the settings, well you can but performance will suffer noticeably unless steps are taken to increase low end pump performance. It's a matter of physics, for a given amount of HP you can have high CFM at low pressure or you can have low CFM at high pressure but you can't have both high pressure and CFM at the same time. It's a matter of energy management and is directly comparable to a car transmission, you can select low speed and high torque or high speed and low torque but you can't have both high speed and high torque at the same time. What you can do with a two stage compressor (or even a single stage if a max PSI of 100 lbs or less is ok) is increase the low pressure CFM by increasing pump speed with a pulley change and limiting the max pressure so that the motor is near max load at the newer/lower cut-out setting. Doing this will give you more CFM and thus faster recovery times on the lower end of the recharge cycle but at a slight efficiency loss, the efficiency loss is almost eliminated by the better lower pressure performance however and indeed some factory two stage compressor settings use this setup. What you are proposing is to give up the efficiency of the higher pressure settings without increasing the lower pressure CFM. While you can't have both high CFM and high pressure at the same time you can have both low CFM and low pressure at the same time and unfortunately that is what you proposing, basically you are going to be losing both ways!

Last edited by oldred; 07-10-2011 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:26 PM
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Well what I was trying to do is decrease the amount of starts on the motor in an hour and the wear and tear on the pump. If you are saying it doesn't matter if the pressure in the tank is 140 psi or 175 psi then Ill just dial it back to 175, I just thought running at a lower pressure would reduce wear and tear on the pump, motor and tank. Since I thought reaching 175 psi is harder on everything than to reach 140 psi.
I don't want to speed up the pump because the old SS would rattle your teeth but this new duel stage is much quieter. I would think running the pump at a higher rpm would also increase the noise level. There are days when I run 90psi for 24 hours for 1 to 5 days in a row. What I really wanted was a continuous duty compressor but one that would put out 6 cfm which is all I need, but is too expensive. This air is used for a machine with a platen that floats on an air cushion.
This compressor is rated at 15.8 cfm at 90 psi. The motor runs at 3500 rpm the same as the old one but the pulley on the pump is larger on the new one so it runs at a slower pump speed.
As you can tell I'm no compressor expert.
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrylwill
Well what I was trying to do is [decrease the amount of starts on the motor in an hour] and the wear and tear on the pump. If you are saying it doesn't matter if the pressure in the tank is 140 psi or 175 psi then Ill just dial it back to 175, I just thought running at a lower pressure would reduce wear and tear on the pump, motor and tank. Since I thought reaching 175 psi is harder on everything than to reach 140 psi.


Simply setting the cut-out pressure lower without increasing low pressure CFM would result in more start/stop cycles not fewer, you would get shorter but more frequent cycles. Increasing the pump speed and lower max pressure would accomplish what you want but actually increasing pump speed would be a bad idea because of increased heat and noise, ideally the change would be a larger pump instead of speeding up the present one. You are correct in that running lower pressure would reduce wear and tear (it also would reduce heat) but in this case gains from the shorter run times would be offset by the the more frequent cycles, for what you want you had the right idea it just needed a couple more steps to work right but unfortunately these needed steps are not very practical in this case.




FWIW, My set-up uses a large Quincy two stage pump and while both the motor and the pump are certainly capable of 175 PSI, or much higher if needed for some reason, I chose to use a cut in/out setting of 110/145 PSI for the same reasons you have mentioned. The difference is my set-up is optimized for that setting and the motor is reaching it's normal peak power draw at the 145 PSI. From what you have told us about your needs I see why you want to do this and IMHO it would be somewhat better in your case but not so much that it would be worth doing what would be required to do it right. Honestly just leave that setting as it came from the factory or maybe slightly lower if you want to take some of the load off of the motor, a 10 PSI reduction in max pressure to 165 PSI would result in an almost imperceptible performance loss at your stated needs but would reduce the load on the motor by quite a bit.
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrylwill
S Another Idea I had was to get the old tank checked out and hook it up downstream after the regulator at 90psi that would give me 140 gals at 90psi, it should increase my air time by 2/3


I missed that earlier but that's a terrible idea!

That is probably the most tried idea of all in an effort to increase compressor performance but it is and always will be an exercise in futility! This has been covered in detail many times here in the past and a search will bring up a lot of info on why that won't work but the bottom line is ALL run time gained is lost to the directly proportional increase in recharge time. If I understand what it is you wanted to accomplish by lowering your max pressure then I can assure you that you will accomplish just the opposite by adding that extra tank. Adding extra tank capacity increases cycle run times and can lead to over heating because of exceeding the duty cycle and in the end it accomplishes exactly nothing in performance gains. Total compressor run time vs recharge times over a given work period will be EXACTLY the same regardless of the tank capacity, larger tank = fewer but longer cycle times while a smaller tank = shorter but more frequent cycles times, the total run time vs the recharge time does not change. Adding the tank downstream of the regulator instead of plumbing it into the high pressure side does not change this, the ONLY difference is that being on the downstream low pressure side will have the effect of making it a smaller tank due to fewer CFM being stored in it from the lower pressure. It will not be as bad on the low pressure side but it will still be a very bad addition to your system.
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:51 PM
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Well I guess there is a lot that doesn't seem to make logical sense. I will put it back to 165psi. I'm an electronics engineer Jim not a mechanical engineer.
thanks
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Old 07-11-2011, 07:18 AM
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I guess most of the responses seem negative but the fact is a compressor could be called an engineered system and it comes from the factory with properly matched components, pump, motor, tank, etc. Attempting to change any one part or setting will usually result in an unbalance of the system and have negative results unless the entire system is considered and modified accordingly. An example is adding that extra tank, while it is still true that the total run time vs recharge time over a given work period would remain the same the run vs cooling cycles would be changed. The recharge cycles would be much longer and while it would be true that they would also be less frequent and would have proportionally longer cooling periods the pump and motor (especially the motor!) would reach temperatures higher than they normally would because of the extended recharge times which would in turn cause greater temperature extremes during the run/recharge, or in this case heating/cooling, cycle.


Like I sad before you actually had the right idea, for your needs anyway, with the pressure setting changes and that change could have benefits in some cases. It's just that more system changes would be required to maintain system balance and unfortunately some of those required changes could be so involved and expensive they become impractical.

Last edited by oldred; 07-11-2011 at 07:24 AM.
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