Installing rings w/o oil? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 07:37 AM
lozinit's Avatar
Resident Evil Penguin Wrangler
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Pensacola, FL.
Posts: 76
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Question Installing rings w/o oil?

I wanted to see if anyone has attempted to start a new engine without first lubricating the piston rings. (A good case in point would be Scooters '33 over at project33)
I have talked to numerous builders in town and the general concensus seems to be split almost 50/50 in this matter.
I have always assembled the pistons/rings, and then dipped them in a coffee can full of fresh oil before installing them. (I get a little jittery thinking about dry metal to metal contact when starting up a new engine.)

Can you guys offer your opinions in this matter?

Does dry starting the rings lead to pre-mature failure in any way? (Or otherwise just bad to do?), or does coating them in oil first really lead to that bad of a carbon buildup from the get-go?
Thanks
~Michael

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 08:01 AM
willys36@aol.com's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: How to rebuild a Rochester Quadrajet 4MV carbureto...
Last journal entry: How to change auto shift timing on 200R4
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 8,393
Wiki Edits: 21

Thanks: 1
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Post

I don't know the answer but reading your post is painful! I keep thinking of fingernails on a chalk board and dry rough hands on corduroy. Stop! Stop! I can't take any more!!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 08:53 AM
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: alberta
Age: 29
Posts: 1,083
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

yeah the thought of dry metal on metal doesn't sound too good... I am interested in the answer to this too..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 09:49 AM
engineczar's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In Flowbench nirvana
Age: 52
Posts: 1,683
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 59 Times in 54 Posts
Post

My usual process is to lightly oil the bores with 30wt. wiping away the excess so the bores are damp. Then oil the wrist pins and the piston skirts with 30wt. coat the bearings with assembly lube and slide them puppies in. The rings seat quickly, and the plugs don't foul. I've used this same process for years and I haven't had a problem yet.
__________________
BSE Racing Engines
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 09:56 AM
Tazz
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: amherst,ohio
Age: 66
Posts: 2,049
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cool

I don't think I have ever heard of NOT oiling the rings, NEVER. What would be the idea, to make metal shavings? I don't think I would take the chance, if you have built engines using oil stay with it, it dons't take that long to break in an engine. Must make it very hard to install those pistons.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 10:07 AM
engineczar's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In Flowbench nirvana
Age: 52
Posts: 1,683
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 59 Times in 54 Posts
Post

Not hard at all, no shavings, no squeeking, no heat. Remember, I did say that I oil the bore prior to assembly so there is lubrication in all the cross hatches. Question, how much oil do you think is between the rings of the motor in your car sitting in the parking lot right now? If there's more than a thin film than it's probably time to rebuild it.
__________________
BSE Racing Engines
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 10:49 AM
Quepas00's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 68
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

You should always lightly oil the rings and the skirt before installation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 11:04 AM
engineczar's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In Flowbench nirvana
Age: 52
Posts: 1,683
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 59 Times in 54 Posts
Post

This might be one of those questions where there is more than one way to skin a cat. Whatever way you learnt or were taught it is ok so long as the end result is what you want. I build 15-20 racing engines a year and I'm very comfortable with my methods and the results.
__________________
BSE Racing Engines
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 11:23 AM
SAE Member, ASE Master Cert.
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Twin Lake, MI
Age: 68
Posts: 332
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

Add my name to the list. I have never heard of anyone installing pistons/ring with NO oil. My method is similar to czar's. First the engine is washed completely with HOT water and soap, then rinsed and blown dry using dry filtered air. Then the cylinders and all gasket sealing surfaces are wiped with clean lint-free cloth, using lacquer thinner or rubbing alcohol. Then, dried again this time with a fresh, dry, lint-free cloth. Cylinders are coated with 30# oil, then the rings, wrist pins and piston skirts are liberally oiled with 30#. Upper bearing shell is installed and lubed with ASSEMBLY lube (NOT moly lube or white (fishing reel) grease), then the piston/rod assembly is slid into the cylinder using a quality tapered ring installation tool, protection on the rod bolts. Crank is rotated so that the rod pin is at BDC before the piston is installed, that way you have room to work.
My engines are also built in a clean environment and always at a consistant temperature of 68 to 70 degrees.
Works for me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 01:27 PM
Harlequin's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 47
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

I have always used a 50/50 mixture of 40# and stp…that has always worked fine for me…I am another addition to the club of hearing this for the first time…I think we need 4 JAW on this
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 01:46 PM
lozinit's Avatar
Resident Evil Penguin Wrangler
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Pensacola, FL.
Posts: 76
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

Ok, let me set the record straight before I get anymore PM's/emails about this.

I never said I do the dry start thing. In fact, I have always done quite the opposite.

I brought this question up because after re-reading an engine article at project33.com, Sehr performance built his engine for him and stated that he builds all his engines this way. (Along with something about "this is the way NASCAR builders do it too...")

I never and will never try this method, like I said in my original post- I just fear the thought of dry metal to metal contact.
I suppose if people are doing it, it can be done, but I'm not willing to find out on my own.

I can see from the general response I recieved though, I am not the only one who thought this idea didn't sound too great. Call it old school, common sense, whatever you want - I just prefer there to be some kind of lubrication on moving parts.
Who knows, maybe we've been doing it all wrong for all these years. (Makes me wonder about priming the oil system before startup now... maybe thats not needed either. hehehe)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 02:17 PM
bullheimer's Avatar
NEVER use credit cards!
 

Last journal entry: car with tt2's, (stockers going back on)
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: North of Seattle
Posts: 2,532
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Post

i think the light coating of oil would be okay if your so good you know the motor will start soon. i never am. with an old fashioned oil can i squirted a couple of shots into the plug hole and turned it by hand before i put the plugs in. you low/no oilers who are afraid of plug fouling might be interested to know it started on the first turn. but if you build mass amt's of engines you've built more in a week than i have in my life. since the rings dont move against the piston groove, it doesnt need lube right? if it aint broke, dont fix it. i sure as hell would not even think about putting them in dry as a bone, that sounds like insanity. but i'll bet the rings break in quicker that way!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 02:37 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Central New York
Posts: 46
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cool

Wow....Dry installing rings. Now I HAVE heard everything. Well I guess whatever turns you on is OK, but it sure sounds like a great way to ruin good parts to me. I personally have to scrub the block, just like engineguy said, but I'm kinda meticulous, so I do it at least twice. :-). I then follow engineczar's method almost to the letter, except I lubricate enough to make things slide just enough. I think the idea is to use just enough oil, but not too much. Yeah, engineczar is correct again, if there is more than a thin film of oil, it IS time for a rebuild. A thin film is all that's required for seal and lubrication. Sorry, but I actually know some NASCAR Engine builders (yeah I know, but it is TRUE) in North Carolina shops who would NEVER install piston rings dry. I know this because I have been present during assembly, so I would say whoever saiid that is WAY wrong. What exactly would be the point of dry installing rings anyways? Does anyone actually think or believe this would promote rapid break in or is it for some other reason? MY 2 cents. :-)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 02:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 176
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

I've heard of people coating the cylinders with ATF. Actually, that's what I used on teh clyinder walls when I assembled the 455. Lightly oiled the rings, pins, and skirts, but the cylinder bores were prepped with ATF....Dexron III to be exact!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2002, 03:25 PM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 5,093
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 113 Times in 91 Posts
Post

You can assemble the rings on the pistons dry and then install them on a dry bore but...this should only be done on engines that have been bored and honed with a superfine finish like 600 or finer.

Why you ask.

The theory is this, on an engine the first few strokes up and down the bore before the engine starts is the break-in and compression in the cylinder will condense water in the air and form a lubricating film, actually this is how most oiless air compressors operate although they use carbon rings in this application. After the engine starts 90% of the break-in is already accomplished and oil slung off the crank will immediately lubricate the bore.

Should I do it?

Not unless you are intimate and confident that the engine was assembled perfectly and the bores are perfectly round (honed with torque plates) and the finish on the bores is very fine and absolutely clean.

Does 4 Jaw do it?

What are you nuts? Not on your life although I did this regularly on two stroke racing snowmobile and dirt bike engines (the oil is in the fuel!). I have seen instances where dry bores and dry rings have picked up and galled the bores after only a few minutes of running using this procedure especially with cast iron rings. Chrome-moly and straight chrome rings/bores are much more forgiving in this regard.

Why do people do it?

You got me, I think it is because they like to roll the dice and tempt the engine Gods because they think they are such great engine builders. Me, I like to appease them whenever I can and I say a little prayer whenever I start an engine for the first time. The engine can break-in slowly for all I care, it's a lot safer.

I use STP on every piston/ring because of the high pressure additives, it's good enough for an air cooled aircraft engine it's good enough for me. I do wipe off the excess mind you. Just because some guy says he does it how do you know he didn't at least give the rings a shot of WD-40 before he installed them. The BS can get thick at times.

Be careful out there.
__________________
Outlawed tunes from outlawed pipes
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.