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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Project89 View Post
but a walboro 255 or an areomotive 340lph pump in the tank

for a carbed engine a walboro 255 will support more power then u will make n/a
u will need a large return line though
Should I step up to 1/2" feed and 3/8" return or a 3/8" feed and 3/8" return?

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Old 10-24-2012, 10:02 AM
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Also right now I have one of those $20 holley regulators. Should I step up to something like this. Then I could run 3/8" feed and return and also have the possibility of swapping to efi down the road which is in the predreaming/planning stages.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by zildjian4life218 View Post
Also right now I have one of those $20 holley regulators. Should I step up to something like this. Then I could run 3/8" feed and return and also have the possibility of swapping to efi down the road which is in the predreaming/planning stages.
If you're going to swap to EFI now is the time to do it- it'll never be cheaper or easier. Even if you can't afford a good multipoint system a junkyard TBI unit on top of your carb manifold is a great way to get started. That way you'll have your EFI fuel system already in place should you decide to upgrade to multipoint down the road.

FWIW you can convert to TBI for less than the cost of a new carb. You can also swap in a JY distributor allowing computer controlled timing advance. 400hp will be maxxing out stock BBC TBI injectors though, the BBC throttle body itself will flow more than enough air with a little finessing.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
If you're going to swap to EFI now is the time to do it- it'll never be cheaper or easier. Even if you can't afford a good multipoint system a junkyard TBI unit on top of your carb manifold is a great way to get started. That way you'll have your EFI fuel system already in place should you decide to upgrade to multipoint down the road.

FWIW you can convert to TBI for less than the cost of a new carb. You can also swap in a JY distributor allowing computer controlled timing advance. 400hp will be maxxing out stock BBC TBI injectors though, the BBC throttle body itself will flow more than enough air with a little finessing.
Would It be maxing them out even if I bumped up the fuel pressure?

I have thrown that idea around before with just using an MS1 or MS2 to run it. I mean I already have the carb and everything so no immediate need to swap right now. As long as the fuel system is there to support fuel injection I can easily just go over to the regulator and turn up the pressure and bolt on the TB and do my tuning from there. Might be something Ill consider down the road but right now I already have a hand full of things I want to get done to the car over winter and I don't really want to add another to it but I will definitely keep that thought in the back of my head though. Im definitely leaning towards an EFI capable fuel system though and probably 3/8" feed and return. I believe I have heard before that 3/8" is good for about 450hp?
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:08 PM
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Would It be maxing them out even if I bumped up the fuel pressure?

I have thrown that idea around before with just using an MS1 or MS2 to run it. I mean I already have the carb and everything so no immediate need to swap right now. As long as the fuel system is there to support fuel injection I can easily just go over to the regulator and turn up the pressure and bolt on the TB and do my tuning from there. Might be something Ill consider down the road but right now I already have a hand full of things I want to get done to the car over winter and I don't really want to add another to it but I will definitely keep that thought in the back of my head though. Im definitely leaning towards an EFI capable fuel system though and probably 3/8" feed and return. I believe I have heard before that 3/8" is good for about 450hp?
Yea, 3/8" will be adequate for your system, I'd run it on feed and return. On the injectors I was assuming you'd bump the fuel pressure up to about 45psi- pretty standard pressure for EFI.

One thing to consider- The sooner you add MS the better and easier your tuning becomes (even if you use a manual dizzy and carb)- BUT if you also add TBI and electronic advance then the weekend you spend trying to get the tune just right can be replaced with 20 minutes on a laptop- while you're on a weekend road trip instead of in the garage.

When I switched to MS it took me about 2 hours to do all the wiring, and now I spend my tuning time seeing how far I can push my mileage at cruise- and by tuning time I mean I have a laptop auto-tuning while I am driving to the grocery store.

For the 2-3 hundred dollar investment in a MS system you'll be wondering why it wasn't the first part you installed- makes everything SO much easier.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Yea, 3/8" will be adequate for your system, I'd run it on feed and return. On the injectors I was assuming you'd bump the fuel pressure up to about 45psi- pretty standard pressure for EFI.

One thing to consider- The sooner you add MS the better and easier your tuning becomes (even if you use a manual dizzy and carb)- BUT if you also add TBI and electronic advance then the weekend you spend trying to get the tune just right can be replaced with 20 minutes on a laptop- while you're on a weekend road trip instead of in the garage.

When I switched to MS it took me about 2 hours to do all the wiring, and now I spend my tuning time seeing how far I can push my mileage at cruise- and by tuning time I mean I have a laptop auto-tuning while I am driving to the grocery store.

For the 2-3 hundred dollar investment in a MS system you'll be wondering why it wasn't the first part you installed- makes everything SO much easier.
Ugh why do you do this to me AP haha. Ever since you said that I have been thinking man it would be so easy to do. $278 for the MS-2 from diyautotune and $50 for a used TB from a 454...... I will wait till after I have the engine ran on the dyno on the carb because I want to do a comparison between the two. When you said 45 psi do you mean on the 454 tbi injectors? I didn't think you could run tbi injectors that high. Looks like that aeromotive regulator I posted a link to would be perfect for this application then. Goes from 3 - 65psi and has 3/8" feed return and outlet. Would anyone else support my purchase of that regulator?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 01:01 PM
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Ugh why do you do this to me AP haha. Ever since you said that I have been thinking man it would be so easy to do. $278 for the MS-2 from diyautotune and $50 for a used TB from a 454...... I will wait till after I have the engine ran on the dyno on the carb because I want to do a comparison between the two. When you said 45 psi do you mean on the 454 tbi injectors? I didn't think you could run tbi injectors that high. Looks like that aeromotive regulator I posted a link to would be perfect for this application then. Goes from 3 - 65psi and has 3/8" feed return and outlet. Would anyone else support my purchase of that regulator?
Most high pressure fuel regulators do not work well with low pressures, they can be inconsistent. And If everything is cleaned, assembled, and sealed you can run that high of fuel pressure on the injectors and that was assuming 454 TBI injectors.

Depending on the carb you're running you may not see much power gain at peak- if any at all- compared to a TBI unit. The real advantage comes in at part throttle in terms of mileage, super smooth acceleration with no bogging, and greatly increased durability of your engine.

You may want to run MS2, but I can't really find any reason for myself to switch from MS1 to MS2. It has a hair more refinement but the difference is so small you'd likely never notice it. With MSnS on a MS1 system and switching fuel tables you essentially have 2 12X12 fuel tables that work in conjunction. MS2 has an even bigger table (God only knows why you'd need it, maybe for an engine that sees 10,000rpm, 35psi, and is street driven), slightly better acceleration enrichment (again not enough to ever notice IMO) and faster response with a wideband oxygen sensor (again nothing that I could ever see needing if you have your system tuned properly).

I got my MS1 used for $100 shipped and bought all the sensors but the oxygen sensor from a junkyard (with pigtail connectors) for $5. I bought a new oxygen sensor for $7. The harness can be bought for like $75 or made with parts for about $20- my first harness was included with my first MS system, I'm making the harness for the second installation.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 01:07 PM
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Most high pressure fuel regulators do not work well with low pressures, they can be inconsistent. And If everything is cleaned, assembled, and sealed you can run that high of fuel pressure on the injectors and that was assuming 454 TBI injectors.

Depending on the carb you're running you may not see much power gain at peak- if any at all- compared to a TBI unit. The real advantage comes in at part throttle in terms of mileage, super smooth acceleration with no bogging, and greatly increased durability of your engine.

You may want to run MS2, but I can't really find any reason for myself to switch from MS1 to MS2. It has a hair more refinement but the difference is so small you'd likely never notice it. With MSnS on a MS1 system and switching fuel tables you essentially have 2 12X12 fuel tables that work in conjunction. MS2 has an even bigger table (God only knows why you'd need it, maybe for an engine that sees 10,000rpm, 35psi, and is street driven), slightly better acceleration enrichment (again not enough to ever notice IMO) and faster response with a wideband oxygen sensor (again nothing that I could ever see needing if you have your system tuned properly).

I got my MS1 used for $100 shipped and bought all the sensors but the oxygen sensor from a junkyard (with pigtail connectors) for $5. I bought a new oxygen sensor for $7. The harness can be bought for like $75 or made with parts for about $20- my first harness was included with my first MS system, I'm making the harness for the second installation.
That regulator comes with two springs. One is setup for 3-20 and the other 20-65. Would this fix the issue you speak of regarding inconsistency. Yeah I was looking at their comparison between the MS1 and MS2 and I may just get an MS1. Not sure yet. Gonna wait until I get the engine back and ready and all the other little stuff done to the car I want then see if I have the time and money to do everything else. Right now Im running an Edelbrock thunder series 650cfm. I would go to the tbi more for economy and part throttle driving than I would for top end power. Who knows I may even pick up a couple hp along the way.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 02:18 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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That regulator comes with two springs. One is setup for 3-20 and the other 20-65. Would this fix the issue you speak of regarding inconsistency. Yeah I was looking at their comparison between the MS1 and MS2 and I may just get an MS1. Not sure yet. Gonna wait until I get the engine back and ready and all the other little stuff done to the car I want then see if I have the time and money to do everything else. Right now Im running an Edelbrock thunder series 650cfm. I would go to the tbi more for economy and part throttle driving than I would for top end power. Who knows I may even pick up a couple hp along the way.
Yea, changing the springs will fix the issue. BTW the Edelbrock carbs don't flow even close to what they're rated at, a smoothed out BBC TBI unit will have more flow for top end power- but it will be fuel restricted at the very top- that's the thing that kills them for big power, the fuel, not the air. You can get upgraded aftermarket injectors but then costs start getting out of hand and you may as well go for a full multiport system.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 02:27 PM
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Yea, changing the springs will fix the issue. BTW the Edelbrock carbs don't flow even close to what they're rated at, a smoothed out BBC TBI unit will have more flow for top end power- but it will be fuel restricted at the very top- that's the thing that kills them for big power, the fuel, not the air. You can get upgraded aftermarket injectors but then costs start getting out of hand and you may as well go for a full multiport system.
ok .. a tbi will get you nice cold start emmissions and NOTHING MORE...
fuel milage will be no better than a q-jet.. and the bbc tbi (iirc) is a 550-600 cfm unit... that will not bolt to a q jet intake..
if like you said in the thread about carb a 350 NEEDING a 750 carb.. then a 550 cfm tbi is a bottle neck .. RIGHT..
if and when I change to efi on my monty SS (same car as his, both g body's)
I'd go with a g/n tank set up as the set up from that v6 monty will not work with any multiport efi.. and other than cold start emissions, he gains zero.. other than a lighter wallet
If , I was him. I'd search to see if all the g body tanks accept the g/n sender/pump set up.. if I had the link from the turbo buick board I'l post it here.. lost that when computer died.. but I think the g/n t-type tank is a different animal and it and sender have it's own part #..
he can spend the money ONCE.. or spend it TWICE... his choice.. but ..
carry on..

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Old 10-24-2012, 02:55 PM
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ok .. a tbi will get you nice cold start emmissions and NOTHING MORE...
fuel milage will be no better than a q-jet.. and the bbc tbi (iirc) is a 550-600 cfm unit... that will not bolt to a q jet intake..
if like you said in the thread about carb a 350 NEEDING a 750 carb.. then a 550 cfm tbi is a bottle neck .. RIGHT..
if and when I change to efi on my monty SS (same car as his, both g body's)
I'd go with a g/n tank set up as the set up from that v6 monty will not work with any multiport efi.. and other than cold start emissions, he gains zero.. other than a lighter wallet
If , I was him. I'd search to see if all the g body tanks accept the g/n sender/pump set up.. if I had the link from the turbo buick board I'l post it here.. lost that when computer died.. but I think the g/n t-type tank is a different animal and it and sender have it's own part #..
he can spend the money ONCE.. or spend it TWICE... his choice.. but ..
carry on..
A smoothed out BBC TBI unit is right under 650cfm- significantly more than the 650 edelbrock carb he's currently using. And he gains NOT ONLY better cold start up and driving but also much more controlled fuel metering- not as good as multiport mind you, but better than his carb. Oh, and the cost for said TBI unit- $15 from your friendly salvage yard. So while it is a bit undersized for its application at $15 I'd use it if it were mine.

To be honest I don't even know why I bother, obviously zildjian understands the clear advantages and after seeing all your other posts I'm not too sure you can tell your *** from a hole in the ground.
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:05 PM
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A smoothed out BBC TBI unit is right under 650cfm- significantly more than the 650 edelbrock carb he's currently using. And he gains NOT ONLY better cold start up and driving but also much more controlled fuel metering- not as good as multiport mind you, but better than his carb. Oh, and the cost for said TBI unit- $15 from your friendly salvage yard. So while it is a bit undersized for its application at $15 I'd use it if it were mine.

To be honest I don't even know why I bother, obviously zildjian understands the clear advantages and after seeing all your other posts I'm not too sure you can tell your *** from a hole in the ground.
have had both. and owned both. real workld.. he'll gain nothing but coldstart lower emmisions.. your reply, at the end here, says it all.
if the o/p wants to believe you thats fine.. g.m.'s own cars that both with same gears/ same weight.. and same 305 engine.. one with a q-jet and one tbi.. one with better aero.. both passed the same emmission test and both within 1 mpg of each other.. and that would be the very low aero on one and a brick aero of the other..
but he can believe you if he chooses..
the facts are right there as g.m. had both in cars at the same time...
oops
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:17 PM
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have had both. and owned both. real workld.. he'll gain nothing but coldstart lower emmisions.. your reply, at the end here, says it all.
if the o/p wants to believe you thats fine.. g.m.'s own cars that both with same gears/ same weight.. and same 305 engine.. one with a q-jet and one tbi.. one with better aero.. both passed the same emmission test and both within 1 mpg of each other.. and that would be the very low aero on one and a brick aero of the other..
but he can believe you if he chooses..
the facts are right there as g.m. had both in cars at the same time...
oops
Im not doing it for more performance. I could care less if I lose 5 hp at the benefit of cold starts and driveability. Plus don't you think it would be nice to sit in the driver seat and hammer on a keyboard to tune the engine instead of constantly changing jets and springs and bending over the fender? Im 23 and my back kills me after I dialed in my edelbrock and that way maybe two hours. again idc if a q jet is just as good. I want the convenience of EFI.

Also what do you think will be easier and more cost effective. Trying to track down a GN fuel tank/pickup/pump setup and paying for it or just taking the setup I have now out of the monte carlo and swapping out the factory v6 fuel pump? and maybe having some AN fittings welded onto the top of the pickup?
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:20 PM
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A smoothed out BBC TBI unit is right under 650cfm- significantly more than the 650 edelbrock carb he's currently using. And he gains NOT ONLY better cold start up and driving but also much more controlled fuel metering- not as good as multiport mind you, but better than his carb. Oh, and the cost for said TBI unit- $15 from your friendly salvage yard. So while it is a bit undersized for its application at $15 I'd use it if it were mine.

To be honest I don't even know why I bother, obviously zildjian understands the clear advantages and after seeing all your other posts I'm not too sure you can tell your *** from a hole in the ground.
Does anyone have bigger butterflies for these? Couldn't I take this to my machinist and he could probably bore out the TB and put some bigger butter fly valves in. Sure might cost me $100 or so but if it could help me pick up some I would be okay with that. Is this something people normally do?
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:33 PM
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Installing Electric Fuel Pickup Hanger Unit - MonteCarloSS.com Message Board
Seems like the 4.3 pickup is the way to go....
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