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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 03:41 PM
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depends do you want to have a fuel pick up that starves for fuel at 1/4 tank or not..
THERE IS a reason g.m. didn't use the same tank..
otherwise they'd have used the same tank and just a different sender/pump set up..
it cost money to design/build/stock different parts.. g.m. bean counters wouldn't ok extra part # unless they had to..
we are talking millions ,
as far as a laptop and tuning, ya kool.. DO IT ONCE..
tbi isn't gonna do anything.. the same issues a carb has with wet flow, tbi has.. when a few cyl are tuned correctly, a few more are lean and a few rich.. that you can't change..
the wideband o2 sender you NEED are 150-190 each, you'll need 2, if you are going to tune for the leanest cyl.. or one and keep moving it..
there is a reason todays cars, are not tbi..
I might have missed it, so not sure if your g body is sbc powered or an olds v8
if sbc multiport efi will cost the same money and you can still run it with a msI or II
add up all the cost to put a msI/II system on your car.. and you're gonna be shocked..

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
depends do you want to have a fuel pick up that starves for fuel at 1/4 tank or not..
THERE IS a reason g.m. didn't use the same tank..
otherwise they'd have used the same tank and just a different sender/pump set up..
it cost money to design/build/stock different parts.. g.m. bean counters wouldn't ok extra part # unless they had to..
we are talking millions ,
as far as a laptop and tuning, ya kool.. DO IT ONCE..
tbi isn't gonna do anything.. the same issues a carb has with wet flow, tbi has.. when a few cyl are tuned correctly, a few more are lean and a few rich.. that you can't change..
the wideband o2 sender you NEED are 150-190 each, you'll need 2, if you are going to tune for the leanest cyl.. or one and keep moving it..
there is a reason todays cars, are not tbi..
I might have missed it, so not sure if your g body is sbc powered or an olds v8
if sbc multiport efi will cost the same money and you can still run it with a msI or II
add up all the cost to put a msI/II system on your car.. and you're gonna be shocked..
two people said that when they take a corner under a 1/4 tank they see a slight fluctuation in the fuel pressure No one else had any problems. Im not gonna be road racing this thing and someone said in the post that they had mounted the fuel pump along the bottom of the tank because they were using the carbed pickup. qoute from other post "Attach an in-tank pump to the end of the pickup where the sock was. It will have it's own sock, so you won't need another." This tells me they placed the pump on its side....... I am going to mount it where the existing electric fuel pump is so wont have this problem.

Yes and there is a reason why oems don't use carbs anymore either. Your not shocking anyone with your amazing vast knowledge that a mpfi setup is better. We all know that. We know that by having centralized fuel distribution you give up even A/F between cylinders..... idc.

Yes I have a SBC in my olds... I probably have said it 3 or 4 times through out this post so if you read the posts you would see that.

Why do I need two o2 sensors? One is fine.

A multiport setup for a sbc that will support 400 hp for $300 including intake, tb, injectors, fuel rails etc is a joke. No way man.... hence why im going with the tbi setup.

Your ignorance and stubbornness is phenomenal.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 05:32 PM
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I think before you open mouth.. go price out the cost of your tbi set up...
complete.. cost..
stubborn.. hardly.. thats why I said it's your CHOICE..
you can spend the money once or twice your choice...
good luck...
that big block tbi .. unit that you'll get at a junk yard..
will need throttle shaft bushings, oops they forget to tell you that.. unless you want a vacuum leak .. that affect the tuning and running.
now bolt it to your intake (adapter required) OR get a tbi intake..
new distributor if you plan on the msI or II doing spark timing.

a bbc tbi can't make 300 wheel hp on a bbc but your gonna get 400hp out of it on a sbc..
again good luck...
you only needing one o2 sendor, you running single exhaust?
enjoy blowing 1000.oo
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
I think before you open mouth.. go price out the cost of your tbi set up...
complete.. cost..
stubborn.. hardly.. thats why I said it's your CHOICE..
you can spend the money once or twice your choice...
good luck...
that big block tbi .. unit that you'll get at a junk yard..
will need throttle shaft bushings, oops they forget to tell you that.. unless you want a vacuum leak .. that affect the tuning and running.
now bolt it to your intake (adapter required) OR get a tbi intake..
new distributor if you plan on the msI or II doing spark timing.

a bbc tbi can't make 300 wheel hp on a bbc but your gonna get 400hp out of it on a sbc..
again good luck...
you only needing one o2 sendor, you running single exhaust?
enjoy blowing 1000.oo
Pricing....

MS-2 $278.00 Diyautotune.com
454 TB - $25
New bushings ill go $20 which Im sure will be more than what my machinist will charge but I will throw his way.
Adapter $50
Miscellaneous Sensors $0 my yard charges to get in so they have never charged me for little sensors and stuff.

okay.... tpi
MS-2 $278.00
GM never made a decent tpi setup. The TPI setup they did is horrible for performance unless you upgrade the lower plenum, runners, and TB. Thats about $600-700 right there.... Unless you go aftermarket which will be like $400 and then you have to get the fuel rails. another $100+ Injectors will be another 300 or so.... Im getting well over 1000 or so and I kinda gave up tallying numbers up so feel free to jump on whatever figures that I posted that are wrong....


You don't think maybe GM's poorly designed, intake, heads, crappy cam figures (for performance) low compression, factory exhaust, factory tune (that was a compromise between economy, emissions, and power) maybe had something to do with that low hp?? Maybe? I would say definitely.


I can do bushings myself I have a drill press..... or I could just have my machinist do it. The adapter is $47 bucks from summit.... Again you don't need an o2 sensor on each bank.. Is it ideal? sure. can you get away without it? yes.... the factory sure did didn't they?

I don't need a new distributor since I have five or six factory ones (HEI, and the small form factor version) if I were to decide to use the megasquirt to do ignition.... but since I have an MSD pro billet distributor with an ignition box I will probably stay that route for now. You still haven't proved to me any of your points.

What else you got? I just am having a hard time understand your points that your making.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zildjian4life218 View Post
Does anyone have bigger butterflies for these? Couldn't I take this to my machinist and he could probably bore out the TB and put some bigger butter fly valves in. Sure might cost me $100 or so but if it could help me pick up some I would be okay with that. Is this something people normally do?
yea, there are places that do that, or you could have a local guy do it and but new throttle plates- BUT you'll need more fuel before you need more air and better injectors will cost you around $200. At that point I'd just run a converted LT1 intake or go for a aftermarket miniram.

If you go TBI keep it cheap.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 06:35 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zildjian4life218 View Post
Pricing....

MS-2 $278.00 Diyautotune.com
454 TB - $25
New bushings ill go $20 which Im sure will be more than what my machinist will charge but I will throw his way.
Adapter $50
Miscellaneous Sensors $0 my yard charges to get in so they have never charged me for little sensors and stuff.

okay.... tpi
MS-2 $278.00
GM never made a decent tpi setup. The TPI setup they did is horrible for performance unless you upgrade the lower plenum, runners, and TB. Thats about $600-700 right there.... Unless you go aftermarket which will be like $400 and then you have to get the fuel rails. another $100+ Injectors will be another 300 or so.... Im getting well over 1000 or so and I kinda gave up tallying numbers up so feel free to jump on whatever figures that I posted that are wrong....


You don't think maybe GM's poorly designed, intake, heads, crappy cam figures (for performance) low compression, factory exhaust, factory tune (that was a compromise between economy, emissions, and power) maybe had something to do with that low hp?? Maybe? I would say definitely.


I can do bushings myself I have a drill press..... or I could just have my machinist do it. The adapter is $47 bucks from summit.... Again you don't need an o2 sensor on each bank.. Is it ideal? sure. can you get away without it? yes.... the factory sure did didn't they?

I don't need a new distributor since I have five or six factory ones (HEI, and the small form factor version) if I were to decide to use the megasquirt to do ignition.... but since I have an MSD pro billet distributor with an ignition box I will probably stay that route for now. You still haven't proved to me any of your points.

What else you got? I just am having a hard time understand your points that your making.
You can make an adapter for your intake out of a LOT of different materials. I've made several out of nothing more than a piece of 1" oak, also used plastic, aluminum, really a lot of things can work. And I highly doubt you'll need new bushings too. buy a used MS system and you just cut your total price in half. I would also go with computer controlled timing, you can use a MSD box with it too.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zildjian4life218 View Post
Pricing....

MS-2 $278.00 Diyautotune.com now add the stuff they don't surply
454 TB - $25 good luck with that they are 75 here if you can find one
New bushings ill go $20 which Im sure will be more than what my machinist will charge but I will throw his way. add drill bit, and stop, and gaskets to put it back together and new regulator
Adapter $50 look at the adapter on a intake, if a g.m. q jet intake the 4 holes don't line up
Miscellaneous Sensors $0 my yard charges to get in so they have never charged me for little sensors and stuff. you mean you 5 finger the senders, as they don't give away parts,

okay.... tpi
MS-2 $278.00
GM never made a decent tpi setup. The TPI setup they did is horrible for performance unless you upgrade the lower plenum, runners, and TB. Thats about $600-700 right there.... Unless you go aftermarket which will be like $400 and then you have to get the fuel rails. another $100+ Injectors will be another 300 or so.... Im getting well over 1000 or so and I kinda gave up tallying numbers up so feel free to jump on whatever figures that I posted that are wrong....


You don't think maybe GM's poorly designed, intake, heads, crappy cam figures (for performance) low compression, factory exhaust, factory tune (that was a compromise between economy, emissions, and power) maybe had something to do with that low hp?? Maybe? I would say definitely.


I can do bushings myself I have a drill press..... you have a 2 axis drill press vice or I could just have my machinist do it. The adapter is $47 bucks from summit.... Again you don't need an o2 sensor on each bank.. Is it ideal? sure. can you get away without it? yes.... the factory sure did didn't they? the factory used 1 o2 sensor, yup. on SINGLE EXHAUST!!!!!!!!

I don't need a new distributor since I have five or six factory ones (HEI, and the small form factor version) if I were to decide to use the megasquirt to do ignition.... but since I have an MSD pro billet distributor with an ignition box I will probably stay that route for now. You still haven't proved to me any of your points. SO YOU ALREADY HAVE THOSE.. YOU STILL HAVE TO replace the parts (cap/rotor) and wire it..

What else you got? I just am having a hard time understand your points that your making.

you left out the wire'n and the connector pigtails, the fuel system and lines and relays and switchs/fuses/pump unless you are gong to trust the used pump and not replace it while the tank is down..
the return line.. the wiring to the pump.. the cable to plug your laptop to the ms, the relay board kit, or buy all the relays and wire it up yourself..
the testing board to test that you built the ms correctly..
the jumper kits..
start adding it all up..

now back up..
junkyard LT1 fuel rails and injectors with injector wire harness 50 bucks..
we'll use your bbc tbi cost at 25 bucks as the throttlebody..
injector bungs..20-30 bucks... multiport injection.. you choose intake to use.. same msII same dissy you already have.. same cost in the fuel systen plumb'n and wiring..
same cost in senders.. no matter if you have to pay for them or you get them for zero.. ,, 2 )o2 senders.. one for each pipe/bank, same relays and wiring..
more power more mpg batter fuel control. and more power same cost..
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 06:46 PM
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I have two LT1 intakes that I am in the process of converting them for a GEN 1 sbc but I am running vortec heads on my sbc. Any idea if it will still work? Obviously the bolt pattern is different but I would be more worried about the runners lining up. I always thought about getting one of the adapters that the LT1's use to delete the distributor and go to a coil per plug setup... but thats above and beyond what I want to get done this winter. Like I have said I have a long laundry list of other things I want to get done this winter so its still gonna be a thought tumbling around in the back of my head but if I can at least get the fuel system ready for it I have majority of the work done.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
you left out the wire'n and the connector pigtails, the fuel system and lines and relays and switchs/fuses/pump unless you are gong to trust the used pump and not replace it while the tank is down..
the return line.. the wiring to the pump.. the cable to plug your laptop to the ms, the relay board kit, or buy all the relays and wire it up yourself..
the testing board to test that you built the ms correctly..
the jumper kits..
start adding it all up..

now back up..
junkyard LT1 fuel rails and injectors with injector wire harness 50 bucks..
we'll use your bbc tbi cost at 25 bucks as the throttlebody..
injector bungs..20-30 bucks... multiport injection.. you choose intake to use.. same msII same dissy you already have.. same cost in the fuel systen plumb'n and wiring..
same cost in senders.. no matter if you have to pay for them or you get them for zero.. ,, 2 )o2 senders.. one for each pipe/bank, same relays and wiring..
more power more mpg batter fuel control. and more power same cost..
The cost for the wire'n, pig tails, fuel system and lines relays switches fuese pump etc is neglectable if were comparing the cost of TBI vs MPFI.

I don't need a testing board.. I have a degree in Electrical Engineering so I can use a potentiometer and multimeter.
LT1 fuel rails I have which will work. Injectors are 24 lb/hr. Every fuel injector Calc I have seen says I need at least 30 lb/hr which would probably step up to the next size for safety reasons...... so were back at the fact that I would have to buy an Intake and injectors which will be $700 ish... hence why I'm thinking about going the other route... but who knows like I stated I have a couple LT1 intakes which then all I would need is injectors so if my machinist can build a jig to drill and build up the area where the distributor needs to go then maybe I will go that route.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 06:59 PM
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have to go pull both intkes from stock to look at both.. before I comment..
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 07:01 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zildjian4life218 View Post
The cost for the wire'n, pig tails, fuel system and lines relays switches fuese pump etc is neglectable if were comparing the cost of TBI vs MPFI.

I don't need a testing board.. I have a degree in Electrical Engineering so I can use a potentiometer and multimeter.
LT1 fuel rails I have which will work. Injectors are 24 lb/hr. Every fuel injector Calc I have seen says I need at least 30 lb/hr which would probably step up to the next size for safety reasons...... so were back at the fact that I would have to buy an Intake and injectors which will be $700 ish... hence why I'm thinking about going the other route... but who knows like I stated I have a couple LT1 intakes which then all I would need is injectors so if my machinist can build a jig to drill and build up the area where the distributor needs to go then maybe I will go that route.
If you're going through all that trouble just skip the distributor. Its actually easier to just go with EDIS at that point. Just grab the oil pump drive off an LT1, drill and tap your sbc block and run that. For your ignition you need to mount a pickup and you can actually take a cut off wheel and carefully cut a 30-2 wheel into the front of your crank pulley. Your cost for that with be $40 for used eids coils and a couple bucks for a used pickup, oh and a couple bucks for the oil pump drive.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 07:20 PM
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Ill keep it on the back burner and wait till I get everything else done with the car until I figure out if im gonna swap induction or not. As long as I have the fuel system there It will make it easy for me to swap.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zildjian4life218 View Post
The cost for the wire'n, pig tails, fuel system and lines relays switches fuese pump etc is neglectable if were comparing the cost of TBI vs MPFI.

I don't need a testing board.. I have a degree in Electrical Engineering so I can use a potentiometer and multimeter.
LT1 fuel rails I have which will work. Injectors are 24 lb/hr. Every fuel injector Calc I have seen says I need at least 30 lb/hr which would probably step up to the next size for safety reasons...... so were back at the fact that I would have to buy an Intake and injectors which will be $700 ish... hence why I'm thinking about going the other route... but who knows like I stated I have a couple LT1 intakes which then all I would need is injectors so if my machinist can build a jig to drill and build up the area where the distributor needs to go then maybe I will go that route.


let me get this straight.. so I got you clearly..
you think you'll have an issue with EIGHT 24lb injectors,, but are ok with a tbi with 2 injectors..
what flows more water ..2 3/4" water hoses or 8 1/2" water hoses?
ENLIGHTIN ME
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 07:45 PM
Dennis W. Parks
 
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Something else to remember when you install an electric fuel pump, whether it is located in the tank or inline, is to use an electric relay. Also, make sure you have a good ground.

Dennis W. Parks
author of automotive how-to books
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2012, 08:27 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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I you can jack your FP up to about 50-55 pounds then 24# injectors will just be enough for 400hp.
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