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Old 12-06-2009, 04:10 PM
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Interior insulation Report

A couple years ago I read every thread on interior insulation. I used many of the ideas that I read about. A couple days ago, I noticed that there were still questions as to how well the interior insulation stuff works, as most of the projects were still under construction. Here’s my report on what I did, how it works and a few things I over looked. (I might mention I didn’t use Lizard Skin or microballs.)

My ’53 3100 has been on the road for a little over a year.

What I did: The cab was media blasted, and primed with epoxy. I coated the floor and firewall with a couple coats of Duplicolor truck bed liner (rolled and brushed), and sprayed single stage semi-flat black urethane (PPG) on everything else. I used Dynomat (purchased from Amazon for less than half the price on Dynomat’s website) and Peel and Seal to cover the floor, firewall, back of the cab and inside of the door skins. Over that I used the foil faced bubble stuff on the on the vertical surfaces and roof. The felt face bubble stuff was used on the floor. I had the floor carpeted and door panels made by an upholstery shop. Later they made and installed the headliner.

I had no problems with the Duplicolor truck bed liner adhering – it stuck to everything, including the shop floor where I dripped some. The clutch and brake masters are accessed through a hole in the floor (they use the original pedals). I had to bleed the clutch at least 10 times and dripped brake fluid all over the coated floor. The Duplicolor was unaffected by the brake fluid.

The Peel and Seal seemed very much like the Dynomat. I used the Dynomat until I ran out, then went to Lowe’s and got the P & S – they only had it in 6” width. After I applied the Dynomat to the back of the cab, a knuckle rap sounded like a dull thud instead of the steel drum sound it had before. I had braced the firewall with channel to provide a place to mount the evap/heating unit, and dryer, so it was pretty dead sounding before the Dynomat.

Thermal result: I have driven the truck when it was 110+. The Vintage Air AC had no problem keeping up and there was very little heat coming up through floor or firewall. I am very pleased at the thermal insulating quality I have.

Sound: I noticed a dramatic decrease in noise level when the carpet and door panels went in and another significant decrease when the headliner was installed.

The cab is still pretty noisy. I have some thoughts on some things I overlooked.

The NV3500 tranny is very loud. You can hear the syncros and the throw out bearing and lots of gear noise. It occurred to me that the shifter is acting like a screwdriver placed on a valve cover so you can hear the lifters. I have a Hurst shifter with a long shift lever (homemade). There is no rubber isolation anywhere –the Hurst is bolted to the tranny and the lever is bolted to the Hurst all metal on metal. I think the shift lever acts like a huge broadcast antenna.

If that is true, what about the E brake lever? It bolts to the tranny also. Probably it is another broadcast antenna. The brake and clutch pedals may also be another factor. They pivot on bronze bearings, metal to metal all the way to the frame. They are shorter and dampened by the felt pads, so maybe not as much.

Another thing I overlooked is the metal door panels (I did the inside of the door skins, but not the inside of the door panels), they should be dampened. I put the upholstered panels where the stock ones were. A full door panel might quiet those down a bit.

The 3100 front cab mounts are a piece of ¼” neoprene between the frame mount and the cab. The bolts that hold the cab to the frame, are metal on metal can transmit some noise. The rear mounts are shackles that originally used bronze bushings. I replaced the bronze with aftermarket rubber mounts that probably help reduce the noise level.

I set the vent windows incorrectly, leaving a 1/8” gap to the weatherstrip. I get a little wind noise there. The new door weatherstrip is doing its job, at least, as well as a vehicle of this vintage is capable of.

Of course, quieter mufflers would also help. I used Flowmasters and I don’t really think I’ll give them up.

Conclusion: When I was soundproofing, I was looking for ways to reduce vibration. I should also have thought about looking for ways that sound could get in and tried to eliminate them.

I spent real $$$ for the period correct radio. Making it sound good in these small pickup cabs takes more than just installing some speakers. I should have bought an I-Pod instead.
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Last edited by DJ3100; 12-06-2009 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 12-06-2009, 07:07 PM
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nv3500

I've got a 54' 3100 truck that also has a nv3500 trans. I haven't finished insulating the interior yet, but when I first got the truck on the road it had a lot of gear noise and I could even hear the trans whine a little at idle. It shifted fine thru all the gears, but it made a lot of noise in first and second. I made a 150 mile trip in a couple of months ago and when I got to my destination it started making a lot more noise. My brother and I pulled the trans and took it to a friend of his who rebuilds them. He took the front of the case off of it and the input shaft bearing fell out in several peices.
The guy told me that someone had been running 80/90 in the trans and they were designed to be used with a special light weight oil. He replaced the bearing and we got it back on the road with the proper oil in it and it made an amazing difference in the amount of noise I can hear inside the cab.
If yours has bearing noise in it the oil won't quieten it down. It may be in need of a rebuild.
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:31 PM
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I actually had it built by a professional shop (whatever that means). He bought the case used and put in all new parts (yeah, right). I'd take it back to him and have him check it out, but he's out of business. The possibility you related, and worse, has been on my mind.

I am sure that the only transmission fluid used was the $16 per quart stuff from GM- forgot the name.

I have a friend that worked at the testing lab at the GM Proving Grounds. He tells me it sounds normal, just like the trucks they would get to test without all the soundproofing and interiors.

My plan is to swap shifters and see if the frequency or noise level changes.
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Old 12-07-2009, 07:35 AM
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"The Peel & Seal seemed very much like Dynomat".

While Peel & Seal looks like Dynamat, it is asphalt based and Dynamat is butyl based. That is why Dynamat is more expensive. If you live in a colder climate, you may be able to use Peel & Seal, but in warmer climates, Peel & Seal will fail quicker in the heat than a butyl based product. It will also fail quicker in extreme cold than a butyl based product. The reason is that butyl rubber remains more flexible in temperature extremes than asphalt.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong to use one product over the other, just pointing out the basic facts of the two substances.
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Old 12-07-2009, 08:48 AM
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Dan, I greatly appreciate your knowledge and input on this forum.

My thinking was that the floor in my truck will never get close to the temperatures that roofs see in the summer sun (around 200 F here in Arizona) . If it stays stuck at 200 F it should be OK at 120. (I don't know about cold - the temperature dropped into the 60's last week and I'm stuck inside until it warms up.)

The concern of a lot of folks on this forum was that the asphalt based products might out-gas and make the cab smell like asphalt. So far, I haven't been able to smell any asphalt inside the cab and I have driven it and parked it outside when it as 110+. Also, I believe OEM's have used asphalt based sound deadening for at least 50 years.
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ3100
I believe OEM's have used asphalt based sound deadening for at least 50 years.
Very true.

Vince
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ3100

My thinking was that the floor in my truck will never get close to the temperatures that roofs see in the summer sun (around 200 F here in Arizona) . If it stays stuck at 200 F it should be OK at 120. (I don't know about cold - the temperature dropped into the 60's last week and I'm stuck inside until it warms up.)

The concern of a lot of folks on this forum was that the asphalt based products might out-gas and make the cab smell like asphalt. So far, I haven't been able to smell any asphalt inside the cab and I have driven it and parked it outside when it as 110+. Also, I believe OEM's have used asphalt based sound deadening for at least 50 years.

If it works for you and you're happy with it, that's all that counts. BTW, 60 is a day at the beach where I live!
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:08 PM
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Just kidding about the 60 degree thing.

I was not really endorsing the use of Peal and Seal, or anything else for that matter. I read a post that said no one knows if this alternative insulation stuff works because they haven't finished their cars yet. Since my truck has been on the road for a while and I used a lot of ideas from this forum, I thought I'd report the results.

That being said, my Peal and Seal is still stuck to the inside of the doors, which I would think would be about the most vulnerable because of the vertical position and intense heat.

I used Dynomat on the roof and it is still stuck. My carpeting is still in the same place the upholstery guy put it, so I think the Duplicolor bed liner is still stuck also. And nothing smells.

If I had ordered enough Dynomat, I wouldn't have used the Peel and Seal. I will probably use it again.

I would sure like to see reports from other people who actually have real world experience with any of the stuff that's been discussed, including micro balloons. I also would like to know if anyone used Lizard Skin or an alternative without any additional insulation and did it work for both sound and heat transfer?
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Old 01-29-2010, 09:08 PM
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Lizard Skin and Dynamat

I feel that I can give a fair comparison of BOTH:

Now these are newer model vehicles but, BOTH ARE INDENTICAL in regards to cab and interior trim level.

#1 is a 2005 F-450, Diesel, Auto, Crew Cab, 4x4
- TWO LAYERS of Dynamat on: Doors/Roof/Rear Wall
- ONE LAYER of Dynamat on: Floor Board/Hood
** 2nd layers were run in opposite direction from first, BOTH LAYERS had seams taped with Aluminum Foil house A/C DUCT TAPE

#2 is a 2006 F-350, Diesel, Auto, Crew Cab, 4x4
- My stereo guy was GIVEN a fair amount of Lizard Skin. He refused to try it so after it sat there a while, (month), I asked him about it. I had to buy a little to cover the entire interior and hood but, most of it was FREE! Borrowed a gun. You mix it up and drop the suction tube in the bucket and shoot away.
- I applied it at the top end of the thickness they reccomended, EVERYWHERE I COULD get it. Ended up doing some cutting/scraping when I cleaned up, it's a weird gun and even though I mixed it very well it had have some thicker / thinner spots in the bucket. ** If you use this make sure the area where the "feet" of your seats sit is completely taped as it doesn't compress very well.***


- Dynamat:
- Takes longer to apply, 10 hours total in the above truck with R/R seats
- Fingers/Hands hurt for a week from pushing/rolling/etc.
- Rather wet sand a half dozen Ford Galaxies by hand
- Can't get inside of "pockets"
- Lot of money to do a full size crew cab truck

- Lizard Skin:
- Goes on QUICK, 3 hours actual work, seats 'n' all R/R
- WILL RUN if you're not careful
- Goes into ANY hole the gun will fit in, (Pillar/etc.)
- Cheaper to do even if you have to buy it retail

SOUND CONTROL AFTER APPLICATIONS:

Dynamate WINS, HANDS DOWN!!!! Lizard skin, in my mind anyway, shoul've worked BETTER because it actually coats all of the nooks and crannies but it seems like it doesn't dampen the metal in the floor or headliner. I don't know if it's because it actually becomes "at one" with the panels or ??? (I hope that makes sense to everyone.)


This was my first full attempt at sound deadening anything so, I think that makes me a good "test dummy" ????
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Old 01-31-2010, 08:48 AM
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Hey guys thanks for posting, I'm working on a 56 Ford panel truck so I need LOTS of sound deadening. Is the peel and seal roofing stuff ? I read about a guy using it on a bronco to save money, and he loved it. My concern was the smell. How much cheaper than dynomat is it ?
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollinsmoke
I feel that I can give a fair comparison of BOTH:

Now these are newer model vehicles but, BOTH ARE INDENTICAL in regards to cab and interior trim level.

#1 is a 2005 F-450, Diesel, Auto, Crew Cab, 4x4
- TWO LAYERS of Dynamat on: Doors/Roof/Rear Wall
- ONE LAYER of Dynamat on: Floor Board/Hood
** 2nd layers were run in opposite direction from first, BOTH LAYERS had seams taped with Aluminum Foil house A/C DUCT TAPE

#2 is a 2006 F-350, Diesel, Auto, Crew Cab, 4x4
- My stereo guy was GIVEN a fair amount of Lizard Skin. He refused to try it so after it sat there a while, (month), I asked him about it. I had to buy a little to cover the entire interior and hood but, most of it was FREE! Borrowed a gun. You mix it up and drop the suction tube in the bucket and shoot away.
- I applied it at the top end of the thickness they reccomended, EVERYWHERE I COULD get it. Ended up doing some cutting/scraping when I cleaned up, it's a weird gun and even though I mixed it very well it had have some thicker / thinner spots in the bucket. ** If you use this make sure the area where the "feet" of your seats sit is completely taped as it doesn't compress very well.***


- Dynamat:
- Takes longer to apply, 10 hours total in the above truck with R/R seats
- Fingers/Hands hurt for a week from pushing/rolling/etc.
- Rather wet sand a half dozen Ford Galaxies by hand
- Can't get inside of "pockets"
- Lot of money to do a full size crew cab truck

- Lizard Skin:
- Goes on QUICK, 3 hours actual work, seats 'n' all R/R
- WILL RUN if you're not careful
- Goes into ANY hole the gun will fit in, (Pillar/etc.)
- Cheaper to do even if you have to buy it retail

SOUND CONTROL AFTER APPLICATIONS:

Dynamate WINS, HANDS DOWN!!!! Lizard skin, in my mind anyway, shoul've worked BETTER because it actually coats all of the nooks and crannies but it seems like it doesn't dampen the metal in the floor or headliner. I don't know if it's because it actually becomes "at one" with the panels or ??? (I hope that makes sense to everyone.)


This was my first full attempt at sound deadening anything so, I think that makes me a good "test dummy" ????
QUESTION: Did you use the sound coat first and then the heat part? I screwed up and revered mine so I guess you could me put in the dummy section to. The directions were not very clear like now after I called to get a part for the gun (bad threads) and told them what i was doing and was told I did it back ward but it still would work fine just not as good on the sound as the heat part. oh did you Waite 24 hr between coats or just pile it on? oh yea a cup or two of water will make it spray a lot better also a strainer if it has set a spell before use.I like some others are waiting for warmer weather 21 snow&sleet on the grown today and before some of you fellows up north tell me that an't swat come on down and try to drive on a 1" of ice on top snow. so that said I will know how good it works this summer.

later OLDROD
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hwyhogg
Hey guys thanks for posting, I'm working on a 56 Ford panel truck so I need LOTS of sound deadening. Is the peel and seal roofing stuff ? I read about a guy using it on a bronco to save money, and he loved it. My concern was the smell. How much cheaper than dynomat is it ?
Peel & Seal is a roofing product available at most home centers in rolls of various width. It is asphalt based. The better quality sound deadeners like Dynamat are butyl based. The butyl based products have a higher resistance to heat and cold than asphalt based products. Dynamat is a lot more expensive than the asphalt based products. There are some good deals on Dynamat on E-Bay and other online sources, but it will still be more expensive than Peel & Seal. Basically, it's up to you to check out the specs on the various products and decide how much you are willing to spend.
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Old 02-01-2010, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hwyhogg
Hey guys thanks for posting, I'm working on a 56 Ford panel truck so I need LOTS of sound deadening. Is the peel and seal roofing stuff ? I read about a guy using it on a bronco to save money, and he loved it. My concern was the smell. How much cheaper than dynomat is it ?
There are butyl base roofing membranes that come in 100 square foot rolls for less money than Peel and Seal and much less than Dynomat. Around here they are only available at roofing supply companies.

Peel and Seal has worked for me without producing any odor. It has remained "stuck" for 2 1/2 years (I wouldn't use it on the roof). I live in the Phoenix area and it gets plenty hot here. OEMs used asphalt based insulation for over 1/2 a century.

I have bought Dynomat on Amazon where is was less than 1/2 the list price from the Dynomat website. I think it was not too much more expensive than P & S. I also think it works better. There is no indication that I have found that Lizard Skin alone would provide the sound dampening you're looking for.
It seems like everyone who has used LS put Dynomat or a similar product over it.
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:33 PM
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thanks,
I will price the butyl roofing stuff and the dynamat online. I know for the volume I need, I would spend small fortune on dynamat, as it's typically priced. I drove it from CA 10 yrs ago to Tampa, FL. With NO insulation or deadener, it was like having your head in a steel drum...I've GOT to do something
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:24 AM
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Covering the inside of a Panel truck with Dynomat or similar would be out of my price range, that's for sure. I think I would go to a Pick-A-Part and check out the insulation in high end minivans and SUV's. You might find some you could use, but more importantly, you could get some ideas how to do it.

With Dynomat or P&S type products you don''t have to cover an entire inside of a vehicle to get sound deadening. Sometimes a square foot in the middle of a large panel (in this case panel is a large area of unsupported sheet metal) is all it takes. You could buy a roll of P&S and experiment with a side panel. Thump it with a knuckle and listen, then add some P&S to the middle of that panel and thump it again. It might not take as much as you think.
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